North Korea – teenagers executed for distributing South Korean movies
tvpworld.com
tvpworld.com
The former sets up an argument that these rights are superfluous, and the latter fails to recognize areas where the west does poorly at upholding rights, especially the limitations on speech imposed by many western governments.
Ok enough I quit hacker news
But who knows, maybe if you'd genuinely asked and heard them out instead of going all, "we don't like your kind here", you might've found yourself agreeing with them. Who knows, but this is about the genuine and free discussion of ideas, not baiting flame wars.
Edit: this is a long comment. It's the first one I've posted after seeing growing number of anti-discussion, reddit-like behavior. It's personally frustrating to me because this is where I go to get away from stuff like this. I hope this isn't too angry or judgy, and I hope everyone's doing okay.
"Excuse me, sir. Please keep your voices down. This is a family restaurant."
"Oh please, dear. For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint!"
Is social media moderation worth discussing? Sure! Is, "Teens may or may not have been executed for distributing movies, but on the other hand they deleted my tweet" a conversation worth having? Debatable.
;-)
Luxury has more than one meaning [1]. If you prefer the language of counting blessings, so be it, though I could also pedantically quibble it implies a divine underwriting of our fundamental rights.
> the latter fails to recognize areas where the west does poorly at upholding rights, especially the limitations on speech imposed by many western governments
This crosses from pedantic quibbling to missing the forest for the trees.
Did you read the OP? O_o
https://eji.org/news/black-children-are-six-times-more-likel...
It's bad enough, you don't need to add fantasy to make it seem worse.
It's not even the oppressors VS the freedom fighters, the fight going on is over who is going to be the oppressor and what exactly should be restricted.
I'm also worried that the online spaces have no accountability and that has become the norm. People and content is removed from public spaces all the time by all powerful people and algorithms, what happens if the that thinking expands beyond online forums? The existence of the individual has been forgotten and people are virtually executed at whim and I'm not sure that with the proliferation of killer drones people are not simply going to push a button and clean up the real world annoyances without thinking about the moral implications of the action.
The tendency in the West is clearly to suppress content, decide arbitrarily what is good and what is evil, what you should watch and not watch.
Twitter recently has been a good example of desire to control information, with half of the political class and even head of states (Macron) saying that it should be "controlled" to restrict "fake news", by fake news they of course mean someone talking about H.Biden's laptop, or someone saying that there are only two genders.
Just recently, a bunch of conspiracy freaks in my country were raided by police, since they were found out to be preparing for a coup. Funnily enough, it was once again people from right-wing parties, Qanons and one descendant of former royalty in Germany.
>> Yeah yeah i know. That's pretty much copy-paste what any totalitarian regimes says when they shutdown the internet, cf. Iran lately. And no thanks, I don't need you to decide for me if a content is rubbish or not, I can work it out for myself...
By the way, you wanna talk about how "unfounded" the "conspiracy theory" on H.Biden's laptop was ?
What i do see all the time here in Germany, are a bunch of bots and funny accounts with random numbers artificially pushing primarily far right topics on Twitter trends and other social media. And that is a problem indeed. As we have seen with those incidents, like that guy at a gas station being shot in the face for demanding the customer to wear a mask...
>> Yeah, I'm not surprised, you seem to be fed directly by what Twitter and Youtube are telling you is worth knowing about, so no wonder you have never heard of certain things.
And again, "he's a bot pushing far-right topic" is textbook what any totalitarian regimes say when they justify shutting down the internet, I don't think you realize how much you sound exactly like the Ministry of Information in Iran, in Moscow, or in North Korea.... "oh, but i'm leftist, it's ok when WE do it".
Ah yes, that must be it. Not the fact that this topic is mainly pushed by a known sensationalist crap show of a "news station", or a bunch of corrupt politicians whose followers tried to overthrow the government.
> And again, "he's a bot pushing far-right topic" is textbook what any totalitarian regimes say
Dude, if you don't even recognize accounts being about 2 months old, with literal serial numbers on it and not a single tweet until a certain point in time... Mixed with legit accounts of known party members of the AfD, a far right party, and people who follow the Russian propaganda of RT or literal Nazi blogs and have the "Reichsflagge" somewhere in their profile. It's so damn obvious, you'd have to be blind not to notice it.
Also, it's not about shutting down the internet. It's about applying existing law against mega cooperation who seem to think they stand above it. For some dumb reason, that seems controversial to you guys. No country in the world wants you to stand outside and scream "overthrow the government" or something. Why should it be allowed on the internet, then?
>> When many BLM protesters, even US Senators (of Illinois if memory serves me right), advocated VIOLENT protests to take down the establishment, using rhetoric like "this is a war", leftists applauded, and none was censored by GAFAs. Double-standards ?
And how do you make a tweet saying that there are only two-genders, equivalent to "overthrow a government" ? Sounds like a pretty convenient excuse to censor pretty much anyone you want... again, just like Iran... in Iran, removing head-scarf is deemed equivalent to wanting to "overthrow the government".
Where did i make it equivalent? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about people who are actively trying to subvert the democratic process. Because contrary to what they say, it's not that two-gender nonsense that gets them in trouble. It's a puppet they use to pretend to be victims. An age-old trick to get you to follow them.
You responded to this bringing the FSB.
“allowed”? Who exactly did we ask permission? The government should live in fear of the governed.
wrt interventionism and avoiding past mistakes: Keep in mind a big part of what has kept the north korean regime so stable is the memory of plentiful massacres that occurred during the war. Villages that were killed due to suspicion of collaboration and a south Korean dictatorship till 88 or so.
As others pointed out by others as well: Much of what ends up reported about NK ends up being fake. I have no doubt that NK is a brutal authoritarian regime but after all the fake stories i kind of tune out to news like this.
Every time. And as usual, only unnamed sources.
Other great hits include:
- Every citizen must use the same haircut as Kim Jong-un
- NK government announced that they found a "unicorn"
- NK official was executed for bad posture
- Kim Jong-un's uncle was eaten alive by starving dogs
- Kim Jong-un labels DOG MEAT a 'superfood'
- North Korea tells parents to give kids patriotic name like 'bomb', 'gun' and 'satellite'
- North Korea bans sarcasm because Kim Jong-un fears people only agree with him ‘ironically’
It's not like North Korea is paradise. It's certainly not. It's another poor third world nation, not unlike many of the ones currently on the western side of things where the same sort of life happens. But, of course, you won't hear a word of (unless it's Cuba, Venezuela or Nicaragua, that is).
‘The safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people’ - US Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter
And the editorial board that crafts that news also knows it, so they are counting on it for that to have an extra pull that way as well
It is common for the general public to name their kids after what's in vogue it happens in all societies and the degree to which they are compelled to do so varies ofc, ergo all the little girls named Elsa that can be seen nowdays
OK...maybe Kim Jong-un himself? At least we can consider him as an authoritative source.
The big name I can think of is Felix Abt, who wrote about life in Pyongyang. Bad, but much safer than most of the other comparable capitals he did business in. He's biased in favour of ending sanctions and sanitizes some of what he said, but "A Capitalist in North Korea" confirms some of the negative assumptions about the country while criticising the more extreme claims.
I never heard of Felix Abt, what are the reasons he should be trusted? It’s well known that foreigners aren’t allowed to move around freely, even if he has the best intention we can only say what he described are true only for the circles he interact with.
Irony of calling north Koreans brainwashed
Also your comment is a counter-example for the US's brainwash, if that holds.
Followed by all the most trusted mainstream media outlets repeating the rumor uncritically.
Followed by a rash of "O M G she's still alive????" when, shockingly, appears in the public eye, unmurdered:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kim-jongun-s-e...
No shit she's still alive, geniuses. You all trusted a single source known for making up fantastical bullshit on a fantastical story.
There's pointing out propaganda (which I agree Radio Free Asia is), and there's boiling down a country well-documented as a known human rights violator[1] to "just another poor third world nation"
[1] https://reliefweb.int/attachments/838602f4-8043-3da8-85bd-12...
Take the falun gong cult, or Scientology of the east for instance.
They were protected and given special status in New York and now spend a large amount of their time spreading nonsense propaganda about not just China but supporting extremists right wing parties globally.
No one in the US even bothered to cover them until they were banned for trying to spend 20millon on pro-trump ads in 2020.
And guess what they own most of the leading YouTube channels about China and are the gateway to anyone curious about how China functions.
I'll know, since I was watching one of their channels since 2010 and only found how how much fake made up stuff they made up only much later.
Same thing happened with how ISIS was formed due to the sheer ignorance of the decision makers.
ignorance breeds stupidity.
Even the mods notice how blatantly bullshit the post was and flagged it.
Just because no one likes the regime doesn't mean you go around attacking people for pointing out falsehoods about it.
It will only make it harder for people to find the truth and help others inside it.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
It’s a news agency funded by the US government via the US Agency for Global Media, which is an independent agency of the US government. The Secretary of State used to be on the board of directors by rule but that changed in 2017.
The on paper org structure matters zero percent in areas of intelligence and diplomacy.
It’s right there in the public mission of the governmental agency that actually runs the RFA. You can see the budget, strategy directives etc.
The RFA is unapologetically an arm of the US government. Judge it for what it is without dramatizing it.
“One of the C.I.A.'s first major ventures was broadcasting, Although long suspected, it was reported definitively only a few years ago that until 1971 the agency supported both Radio Free Europe, which continues, with private financing, to broadcast to the nations of Eastern Europe, and Radio Liberty, which is beamed at the Soviet Union itself.
The C.I.A.'s participation in those operations was shielded from public view by two front groups, the Free Europe Committee and the American Committee for Liberation, both of which also engaged in a variety of lesser‐known propaganda operations.“
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...
They were consolidated in the 90s and reorged a few years ago. Again, this is literally on their website!
So when you say they are “literally” a front for the state department you are wrong. I suspect you know that, given it’s public ally documented, so the only reason to say it is to cast aspersions on them as sources rather than evaluating the information provided.
Say they are US governmental propaganda! That’s absolutely true. Just don’t add drama as if they aren’t completely open about this.
This isn't drama, it's context.
As for this line "So when you say they are “literally” a front for the state department you are wrong."
Their connections to State/CIA is well documented. This is hardly drama, it's context that would be helpful for people to know when judging information presented. This is basic critical thinking 101 stuff.
I feel like you are arguing that we should ignore the history, years of deception, and trust their website.. Why?
The State department is not the CIA, like the usagm the CIA is an independent agency of the US government, not part of the State department.
I’m just looking for you to be accurate. A statement like “RFA was a CIA backed operation at one time and it still is a US propaganda outlet” would be fine. Instead, your now edited reply to me said I “didn’t know what I was talking about” when I pointed out your inaccuracy.
I encourage you to read up on the topic of interactions between the DoS and the Intel Community. Fascinating reading.
https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...
https://reliefweb.int/attachments/838602f4-8043-3da8-85bd-12...
"Over the past six years, the Special Rapporteur has examined and raised concerns about the coercive system of governance that deprives the fundamental freedoms of people in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. This includes arbitrary arrest and detention, torture and ill-treatment, restrictions on freedom of expression, religion and thought, access to information, freedom of movement and the practice of forced labour."
"Draconian measures have further strengthened the State’s control over the population, such as the policy of shooting individuals who attempt to enter or leave the country and the Law on the Elimination of Reactionary Thought and Culture, enacted in December 2020, containing grossly disproportionate punishments, including the death penalty for accessing information, particularly of foreign content."
You make a great point: this is propoganda.
> It's another poor third world nation, not unlike many of the ones currently on the western side of things
But the "not unlike" comment strikes me as lacking evidence, given the confirmed differences between the DPRK and other poor nation. At least when comparing the content of their refugee testimonials.
Note, this is not a disagreement nor an agreement with your comment, only an observation of what appears to be a hollow spot in the reasoning.
As for the list you cited as bad reports, maybe include links? But again, unless you know with certainty they are fake, how can you be so sure? As nobody collaborated for or against them.
> won’t hear a word of
Which Western friendly country would you like to highlight that we haven’t heard about? Which North Korea-like policies of those countries that you think nobody has talked about?
It’s ironic that you complain about fake news but hide behind a throwaway account, throwing around whataboutism with weasel words.
Anyone who enjoys their reporting may also have an interest in Weekly World News.
I think they’re referring to Radio Free Asia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-k...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/...
And the fact that it's US sponsored media targeted against an ideological enemy
Brb spinning up some blogs about north Korea
There have been many firsthand accounts of those that have escaped North Korea and shared what it’s like to live there. Concentration camps, starving, torture, chemical warfare experiments on prisoners, famine.
A firsthand account from a female that escaped from North Korea shared that the North Korea government will shutdown the power grid without notice and then raid homes looking for DVDs stuck in players (because no power to eject) and will kill those people responsible.
Those that escape North Korea across the river to China are caught and put into sex trafficking. China is complicit in supporting the horrible treatment of the North Korean people.
At least one source.
Death to totalitarians.
> They are very aware that their country is massively worse off than the rest of the world
That's not necessarily true. They don't have access to the internet or foreign media. Only propaganda.
> yet they don't murder their kings
If it was that easy, every country would be a democracy.
That's wildly inaccurate, read "Nothing to Envy" then educate yourself on advancements in censorship circumvention since then -- they regularly get movies and films on USB paired with broadcasts into border regions.
You greatly underestimate the power of propaganda.
I remember seeing a video of two guys just walking holding hands and the entire town basically ready to jump them, not knowing there was a camera going.
If they want to live like victims, fine, that's a choice you can make, I just don't want them exporting their insanity.
> If it was that easy, every country would be a democracy.
If it was that easy, every country would be ruled by the group of people that is best at killing kings.
It's been a very weird thing to watch for 20 years: when it looks like the North Korean system might fail, the US leads assistance to it. Then when it recovers and returns to it's weapons program the US does nothing. That's how we got into a place where North Korea has functional nuclear weapons and will soon have the missiles to deliver them to the whole USA. At that point the US will just have to keep subsidising the regime. It's been decades of mismanagement of the situation over at least 4 administrations.
Go and read what's happening now in Iran. Random people are being killed in streets. Teenager girls are kidnapped and then when they're released many days later they're raped many many times. People have no media. The government uses military equipment against people.
And Iran is nowhere a dictatorship like NK.