Federal court requires Amazon to stop firing employees for protected activities
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nlrb.gov
Probably the issue for Amazon is whether they will be able to successfully argue that they had no idea what they were doing was illegal. I'm unclear on what will happen to a lawyer (if anything) for knowingly participating in contempt. Not a lawyer and not a legal expert so just guessing.
Is it a good-faith action to allow Amazon to change their behavior before an eventual suit is filed?
I had thought that we had laws preventing exactly what Amazon is being asked to stop doing. Wouldn't breaking those laws be grounds for legal proceedings?
I had missed this. I guess the NLRB asked for this injunction.
I'm still not clear on what if anything changes here though.
Again, to me this "injunction" is like a parent saying "don't do that again...or else!"
What happens if they don't?
We let companies get away with alot, but flagrant violations of court orders is one of the few things that will land an executive in a cell
which is yes of course there are examples of that
Pissing off a judge, however, is something entirely different.
But sure, to the wording of the order, they just have to post / distribute / read the order, and:
> ...cease and desist from discharging employees, and from engaging in any like or related conduct, in retaliation for employees engaging in protected activities...
So what's to prevent Amazon from saying, "we haven't broken the law so far and will continue to not do so," while maintaining business as usual in terms of how they respond to unionization attempts?
If anything, what concrete changes are the court requiring here?
More of the quoted sentence:
> ... issued a Section 10(j) injunction against Amazon.com Services LLC directing Amazon to cease and desist from discharging employees, and from engaging in any like or related conduct, in retaliation for employees engaging in protected activities
An injunction essentially says: the court has good reason to presume they match in this way, ergo don't do X, Y, and Z while the case proceeds.
If you then do X, Y, or Z, you have directly defied a court order, which is itself illegal.
So the difference is between being able to construct a defense around "We didn't think what we were doing was illegal" (the original case) vs "We did that thing you told us was illegal while the case proceeds" (violating an injunction). Obviously, it's a lot harder to win a case on the latter.
Edit: I missed that this was about safety protests, not unionization.
Amazon: We claim that this thing we're (allegedly) doing is technically not illegal.
Court: Fine, you can argue that as a defence, but until you actually win the case, you're ordered to stop doing it anyway, on pain of comtempt of court regardless of whether the thing itself is technically legal.
If Amazon were a person, this would be somewhat unfair for SLAPP reasons, but it's not since it's a corporation, so this is fine and reasonable.
Go towards Pioneer Square and the London Plane Coffee Shop there is closing permanently this month, leaving that block of Occidental mostly devoid of foot traffic.
This apparent contradiction is easy to explain.
Forcing people into rehab is considered inhumane. Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. More tweakers out on the street is evidence that the tweakers feel tolerated, which must mean that it's working.
This won't change until you vote out the local politicians who believe these premises: that forcing people into rehab is inhumane. That tweakers are victims of society's intolerance, and that tweakers wouldn't be a problem if we had more tolerance for them.
Then we get all the suburbs dumping their druggies in Pioneer Square and Chinatown. It's a neverending pipeline of addicts the Eastside and south end is dumping on us.
We need to start tracking all non-city LEOs entering Seattle and turn them around if they are giving courtesy rides. Called 911 on one from Bothell yesterday and started filming the occupant and cop. They raced off right quick but I still filed a complaint with Bothell PD.
How is that happening?
Everett has made a huge effort with their rehabilitation and detox programs, but they have the same shitty situation of being the dumping ground for Snohomish County.
They are nowhere near immobile, while metro and sound transit doesn’t even try to collect fares anymore. Bellevue doesn’t need to transport anyone to Seattle, they just send out 5 officers 5 minutes after someone lays down on a park bench. Surely Mill Creek does the same forcing people to Everett. (Lynwood probably has a problem just as bad as Everett)
Hardly, the number of tweakers they throw into rehab is nothing compared to the number of tweakers on the streets. A small percent of tweakers being thrown into rehab isn't going to solve the problem if most of them aren't thrown into rehab.
> suburbs dumping
Local politicians always love to blame others. It's never their fault, of course, and the blame casting always comes with fantasy solutions that will never be implemented, like your idea to "track all non-city LEOs". And each year the problem gets worse. The city is filled with people who think as you do, elect ineffectual politicians who think as you do, and so the city gets what it deserves.
I think willfully stupid people should suffer the consequences of their willful stupidity. It's a bummer I cannot move away from them right now, but I do see how this is totally fair to the stupid people.
Rehab isn't magic - it requires you to really, really, really not want to use drugs anymore.
But you’re right, these individuals certainly are getting disincentives.
How is it otherwise? Or do we just forget other people's freedom when they do things you don't like?
> Tweakers are deemed to be victims of society, and therefore the 'correct' solution is to have more tolerance for tweakers. More tweakers out on the street is evidence that the tweakers feel tolerated, which must mean that it's working.
Instead of strawpeople and rants, how about trying to find solutions that help everyone?
So what? Do we do nothing at all in life, because it cannot be done perfectly? And I'm not sure you are correct; we probably could help at least the vast majority. Why aren't we? Why stand around debating it. Let's act!
> it’s unfair to expect those living normal lives to suffer because drug addicts exist.
It's life, it's the world you are born into - none other ever has existed. Let's raise ourselves up, and especially abandon the absurd trend - is there a more vicious and dangerous one? - of lacking empathy. I understand disruption; it's a tool; what are we trying to accomplish by eliminating empathy?
You and I need empathy too; we give it, in great volume, and maybe in life we get a little back. We live in the real world, not on an island, and this is very much part of the world. We're expected to do these things - it's necessary, basic life and responsibility, along with being humane and responsible. You weren't born into a pain-free, suffering-free world. Civilization, society, your community runs on these efforts, whether you realize it or not - if not, you are sitting back while others do the hard work. And you cause your share too (including trying to take away others' freedom and dignity) and so do I. These are vulnerable people; they need help and support; they might not be nice, and God knows who is deserving. I'm not throwing any stones.
Yes, we do this all the time.
You should strongly consider that these suppositions are fundamentally wrong. I suggest you read Sanfransicko, written by a longtime progressive democrat activist who had the vanishingly rare intellectual honesty to examine in hindsight the results of the drug and homeless policies he himself fought for. He found that they were disastrous!
IIRC their grants and ability to tax local businesses came through under Jenny Durkan's reign, same for the Uptown Alliance covering Queen Anne and Belltown. Jenny Durkan's reign of rainbow colored tear gas was truly awful, but this (and further roads investments) were bright spots.
"It's gotten so much worse since Bruce Harrell has gotten into office."
Bruce Harrell was sworn in at the start of 2022. Here's the crime statisitic from the SAPD
Type,2022,2021, year over year change %
Homicide 51,51 0.0%
Rape 215,205 4.9%
Robbery 2184,2053 6.4%
Assault 2375,2185 8.7%
Buglary 5292,6709 -21.1%
MV Theft 5664,5446 4.0%
Arson 273,308 -11.4%
Larceny Theft 31814,28459 11.8%
I see mixed results but more importantly for the specific type of crime that has gone up it's been mostly single digit year over year.
https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
From Seattle
Type, 2021, 2022
Homicide 42, 46 Rape 300,261 Robbery 1751,1534 Assault 3319,3015 Arson 227,167 Burglary 9821,7361 Larceny-theft 27161,24121 Motor Theft 5329,5591
All categories are down except for Motor Vehicle Theft which is up 5% and murder which was 42 people in 2021 and 46 in 2022.
Source: https://www.seattle.gov/police/information-and-data/crime-da... [Note I switched positions for years]
Yes, that's exactly what they say! "It's not my fault I'm addicted to fent, its your fault!"
> The housing first strategy only works of a critical mass of communities participate.
It works for people whose main problem is lack of housing. It doesn't work with people who have other serious problems, all that happens is the house gets burned out and has to be constantly refurbished (so costs are around $100k/year per hard case housed).
I wouldn't. Would you?
Neither would anyone who's at, above, or even slightly below that station in life.
That's the thing right, obviously this logic fails once you have a job, friends and some level of comfort. This is what we should actually be investing in.
No, but I’ve encountered many people across the spectrum from lower class to upper middle class who for some reason have no problem with stealing from businesses. Even less reticent if it’s a big chain.
> Neither would anyone who's at, above, or even slightly below that station in life.
Your model of people is incorrect. This is even touched on in an episode of Seinfeld where the parents casually mention “only stealing necessities like batteries”.
What does this have to do with moving across the country to live in a tiny house with a bunch of homeless people? Do you know anyone who would do that? Personally I don't. I also don't personally know anyone who shoplifts once they turned 20.
> Your model of people is incorrect.
Thanks, gonna disagree, although your citing a comedy TV series that ended in the 90s did nearly sway me.
If you don't have better options, why not?
Great Falls Montana isn't a great place to be homeless, especially when winter hits.
This is exactly my point. Our goal as a society should be to make sure that nobody's in a position where moving to Seattle and living in a tiny house stealing from a Walgreens is a better situation.
This is what I meant when I said: "That's the thing right, obviously this logic fails once you have a job, friends and some level of comfort. This is what we should actually be investing in."
“I’m gonna bury my head in the sand for no reason.”
> citing a comedy TV series that ended in the 90s
Your appeal to absurdity isn’t helping here. Shoplifting hasn’t changed since then and it was on the show precisely because of the weird social divide around it.
Let me help you out with some Wikipedia since you’re shooting from the gut on this one:
> Economists say shoplifting is common because it is a relatively unskilled crime with low entry barriers that can be fitted into a normal lifestyle. People of every nation, race, ethnicity, gender and social class shoplift. Originally, analysis of data about apprehended shoplifters and interviews with store detectives suggested that females were almost twice as likely as males to shoplift. However, since 1980, the data suggest that males are equally or more likely to shoplift than females. The average shoplifter first did it at the age of ten: shoplifting tends to peak in adolescence then steadily declines thereafter. People of all races shoplift equally, and poor people shoplift only slightly more than rich people.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoplifting#Economist_perspect...
I think you're also demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of what stops crime... It's not prosecuting crime.
Even so, there is nothing illegal about shutting down a store because you would rather have no store than work with a union.
The obligation is to 1) not interfere with union votes 2) listen to union demands
You can still fire them all at the end of the day if the union refuses your terms or close the shop down.
Regarding the weak evidence, you brought up two other valid considerations.
It is really hard to get public support for a union busting narrative when things are in bad shape.
Of course Amazon knows it's better to just do it and spend ten years in court forcing the other side to prove it, rather than going out of their way to make sure managers aren't biasing their recommendations based on who is being a pain about labor rights rather than who is actually doing good work.
Seems like a better world would make them very worried about even that perception, much less it being true.
While us labor law does protect unionization efforts, it also protects other forms of worker protest outside of the scope of unionization.
Additionally, it is an injunction. This is by definition a order to stop doing something prior to the completion of the complete court case. The final Court decision could come with penalties, or even be decided in Amazon's favor
The supply chains are a mess as it is, the US can’t stomach a rail shutdown this winter, and the votes aren’t there to pass sick leave.
Biden isn’t a hypocrite; he’s never been a union absolutist.
And the deal the unions were forced to accept was one brokered by the White House after the unions and rail companies couldn't come to agreement. So presumably more than the rail companies would have been willing to settle on, on their own.
So in terms of voters pissed off vs voters pleased, he probably comes out ahead on this one.
But I may be in a bubble.
Though, sure, a few days of that and we'd not be happy. Mostly for heating-related and food-spoilage reasons. All the more reason for Congress to force the railroads to cave—which is to say, to behave halfway reasonably. But, instead they screwed the workers.
I'm curious how hiring's going to go for them, as they start to run out of workers with a bunch of money in the pension system who can't afford to leave, and now that everyone knows what abusive employers they are. I suppose eventually they'll have to relent and go back to pre-Covid staffing levels, or something like it. Guessing they'll fund that by ditching the pensions entirely, or at least scaling them way back. Great excuse to do that, that they've created for themselves.
I believe it's been mostly homogenized with SS at this point, so distinct in name only, but I expect there are still active laws on the books from the 30s and 40s that govern it?
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Retirement_Board
From what I read, they'd basically converged its cost of living and payouts to be Social Security-equivalent (and tied to it for the future), but I believe it's still a distinct program (that just happens to pay the same amount).
There were also some oddities with porting between the two systems (railroad work -> social security work, or vice versa).
It stuck in my mind because the idea of a government-backed retirement system before social security seemed such a weird historical quirk!
And rail is pretty unique in terms of transport cost : weight. There is no substitute.
On the one hand, I'm not in favor of any industry being required to work. On the other, I do recognize critical industries have responsibilities as well as rights.
A 14% raise w/ back pay + 24% raises (in total over 5 years) + no copay or deductible increases (or changes to healthcare for 5 years) isn't nothing.
In general, they face the same issue airlines do: their primary cost and schedule (aka revenue) limiter is skilled labor. So they try to limit that by maximizing utilization of a minimal number of employees.
It looks like in the US Congress controls railroad labor rules directly via Hours of Service laws [0], so could hypothetically create better scheduling for life events by altering the requirements (e.g. larger blocks of time, at home, in-between shifts) without railroad companies' involvement.
[0] https://railroads.dot.gov/legislation-regulations/current-in...
If their service is so essential, they should be granted some sick days.
It is possible to compete, confront, and negotiate for more.
So when Joe Senator votes against (and, to a much lesser degree, for) something you can't ever really be sure they really do oppose/support it. The TPP was one of the most exceptionally visible examples of this with overt bipartisan strategizing against the voter. By contrast when Joe President signs a bill (or vetoes) it you have 100% certainty that it's his "real" agenda, because that is the ultimate and deciding "vote" excepting the increasingly rare scenario of a congressional veto override.
Put more succinctly, in our original hypothetical changing out those 50 senators who voted for the unpopular bill would have literally 0 impact on its passage. Yet changing the 1 president would. Even if congress might have the ability to override his veto of it, they would be unlikely to do so for an unpopular bill. In reality the bill would never be voted on unless the congress knew the president was on board.
Quite frankly, imprisoning the company is the next step - no access to, control or operation of funds, assets or company systems for the duration of imprisonment. It should be as much of a threat to a company's wellbeing as it is to the average man.
Below is a comprehensive description of how the US removed Indian's from their land. Andrew Jackson plays a prominent role.
They Were Just in the Way | Indian Removal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5P6vJs1jmY
That'll teach 'em.
It is one thing to be a manager at a company getting caught with something and incurring a fine or pay-off a plaintiff. It is another to be held criminally liable. I expect the latter to have much more incentive for compliance.
I'll believe this is more than words when I see something happen to Amazon.
On November 18, 2022, Judge Diane Gujarati of the United States District Court for the District of Eastern New York issued a Section 10(j) injunction against Amazon.com Services LLC directing Amazon to cease and desist from discharging employees, and from engaging in any like or related conduct, in retaliation for employees engaging in protected activities. The injunction also directs Amazon to post, distribute, and read the Court’s order to employees at the Employer’s Staten Island facility (“JFK8”).
https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-region-29...
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