TikTok is transforming the music industry. Is that a good thing? | Hacker News Reader

TikTok is transforming the music industry. Is that a good thing?

newyorker.com

28 pointsgumby58 comments

Disclaimer: This is written by a non-user purely about observations made about TikToks that were posted elsewhere. It is also not a statement of any kind of china issues with TikTok.

What I see is amazing. Sea Shanties that were mainly for seamen and some German metalheads became popular again, suddenly everyone knew Wellerman, there were tons of covers, everything.

Remixes, something that YouTube long ago forgot about (probably copyright laws, those tend to stifle creativity) are commonplace, people build on releases of others over and over again, creating a completely new and amazing endresult.

What I see from TikTok, is a return to the creativity of years ago.

edit: Because people thought of established artists when I mentioned remixes, I’ll clarify. I mean taking some person singing or playing an instrument, adding yourself playing guitar, putting it to the side of the original and releasing it. Then the next person adds a violin. And so on. Just non-commercial remix culture.

>remixes, something that YouTube long ago forgot about

you have to be joking.. Everytime I see a song I like I search for it, can often find all the remixes official / unofficial, extended mix, and instrumental (official or amateurs using cross filtering techniques.)

Also Sea Shanties are on youtube as well, maybe moreso, and easier to find and save to a playlist..

I hate the new youtube UX decisions and limitations but it still blows tiktok completely out of the water(spotify too(spotify is for normies))

> Also Sea Shanties are on youtube as well, maybe moreso, and easier to find and save to a playlist..

The new popularity of them started on TikTok. Of course it spreads afterwards, otherwise I wouldn’t even encounter them ;)

And with remixes, I’ll edit my comment, I don’t mean remixes of some chart artist.

> is a return to the creativity of years ago

What year was that exactly?

I hear a lot of remixes of the same songs, and a lot of the same intro meme music (shanties or otherwise). I don't hear much from any artist's deeper discrography. Your average clearchannel FM radio station has 10x the variety as you'll hear in any given tiktok stream, easy, and those are already playlists that are outrighted determined by record companies.

I don’t mean any established artists. I meant remixing stuff from other, private people that posted to tiktok. Those videos where you add your video to ther side of the existing ones.

> What I see from TikTok, is a return to the creativity of years ago.

And since Tiktok is barely moderated, we also see a return of the "creative" bullshit. Tide Pods, filing down one's teeth, dancing on graves, licking random public stuff to catch COVID intentionally, the "Skull breaker" challenge...

Tiktok is cancer, and additionally it's spyware of an enemy government. It should be banned.

>Tide Pods, filing down one's teeth, dancing on graves, licking random public stuff to catch COVID intentionally, the "Skull breaker" challenge...

I've used it extensively, same with girlfriend and acquaintances and whilst that's perhaps just the result of it's really good content personalisation algorithm i have seen these things not once despite seeing plenty of articles.

I suspect these are the type of things that whilst probably a thing somewhere (as on other platforms) are much much bigger in shock media and peoples minds.

>Tiktok is cancer, and additionally it's spyware of an enemy government.

They're a pretty open book to US law enforcement and 3 letter agents. If I ever get spied on by a foreign gov I kind of expect it to be more from that end. Also somehow youtube tries to pull me in with suggestions/notifications for shorts that are very obviously based on what i watched on tiktok.

It can be both a playground for expression and a tool for attention hijacking. Those are not at odds. Indeed, in the history of "Rock'n'Roll" it's an old pattern.

It's amazing that this great stuff is out on TikTok. Creative diversity and self-determination for artists is something I value enormously. Yet TikTok remains a vector for addictive, manipulative and vacuous content and is an application designed for spying and data harvesting.

A more interesting question is; How did this happen? We (our western media industry) created TikTok - by suffocating authentic art for decades with Svengalis running amok in an over-managed, tightly curated winner-takes-all pageant for primadonnas.

It started with the assault on peer-to-peer, and the copyright lobby are absolutely to blame. In that sense TikTok is just the latest round of cassette swapping and "illegal" rave parties. It's the latest thing the culture police can't control and want to crack down on. If we hadn't been overbearing "parents" our kids wouldn't have an appetite for this stuff.

BUT - The powers behind TikTok are clever. By simply giving kids what they want (easy connection, expression, and novelty) - things we've failed to give them - elements outside our culture are able to leverage subtle control.

But a time will come when the fist closes. While TikTok is a product of the mediocrity of our own offerings and is simply exploiting a gapm it's larger aims remain dubious.

Very well written, and something I mostly* agree to

*: "Mostly" only, because partially I lack the knowledge to agree or disagree.

MP3 is transforming the music industry. Is that a good thing?

AM Radio is transforming the music industry. Is that a good thing?

Shellac records are transforming the music industry. Is that a good thing?

The player piano is transforming the music industry. Is that a good thing?

Perhaps TikTok's algorithm is as corrupt as Brian Epstein (allegedly) buying up early Beatles' singles to take them into the charts. So what?

>Perhaps TikTok's algorithm is as corrupt as Brian Epstein (allegedly) buying up early Beatles' singles to take them into the charts. So what?

I'd imagine the scale of being able to do so globally, across multiple genres is significantly more impactful than the actions of one person, no matter how powerful they were.

That's basically what Payola was. And it's how movie studios choose the soundtracks for their blockbusters - by using music from their own companies.

Look, you can probably make anything a hit if you're prepared to invest enough money into it. And you can probably push fashion in a certain direction if you're inclined.

But no amount of advertising could make people drink New Coke or Crystal Pepsi. No amount of prime time TV could make superstars out of American Idol winners.

The one thing I dislike about TikTok's influence, and I'm saying this as a very casual modern music listener, is that pop songs seem to be becoming extremely short sicne only a snippet is needed to blow up. Now I don't mind a short song or a long song, as long as it's good, but I'm still often left feeling like another chorus or bridge would really flesh out some of these hits. Like that 'Unholy' song by Sam Smith and Kim Petras [0], which I think is rather fun but it really feels cut short to me.

[0] had to search this up, heh.

An important part of the art is music is development. You can't do that in a handful of bars. It just boils down to a blitzy intro, like jingles: catching attention, but no sustenance.

> pop songs seem to be becoming extremely short sicne only a snippet is needed to blow up

That is approximately what happened during the punk-rock era.

A bunch of musicians were tired of overly-complex neo-classical jerkoff that was popular in the age of Deep Purple, Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull and just decided to write three-chord songs with a catchy melody and get rid of all the complexity.

Perhaps this is an introduction to some kind of neo-punk era? Probably not, though.

This will be yet another drop in the ocean of anti TikTok sentiment but, what is the value proposition of TikTok?

I ask because I am told it is meant to have a good algorithm, and yet I can't find ANYTHING on the platform that I like. The easy answer is that I'm not the target audience, but I want to know why.

You are too old.

Don't feel bad, though. Be thankful that you do not have to deal with Tiktok addiction.

> yet I can't find ANYTHING on the platform that I like

Have you tried to create something you like and post it?

Tiktok algorithm generally favors new content.

It’s for people that find other forms of social media too slow and like a more panic inducing, crack-fueled experience

> , what is the value proposition of TikTok?

Coming home from work or from a stressful day out and relaxing and forgetting about everything else. I.e. what good TV used to be in the good old days, even the old web in some parts. People don't want to be reminded each and every minute of their waking hours that there are wars and pandemics going on or that we'll all going to die if we don't recycle the yogurt plastic containers the right way.

When you search for stuff or find something vaguely interesting do you like, share or save it? The algortithm does require interaction to work but i found it picks up rather quickly. Sometimes a little bit too much so i adjust my behaviour accordingly to not give the impression i want to see it again if i think something is cool as a oneof.

I would need to find a video I like to enter that while loop :)

The value proposition is to the advertisers and Chinese capitalists and leadership, not to the user.

It's filling the user's head with forgettable garbage, destroying their attention span and capacity for careful thought.

A stream of consciousness without reflection or memory is exactly what the above parties want from it.

I can’t bear being in the same room when my fiancé’s niece watches tiktok due to the constant barrage of extremely annoying music snippets. The average time spent on a video is about a dozen seconds, so the creators try to put the most attention-grabbing, dopamine-inducing, annoying music on every video. Imagine the average brostep song from the 2010s, filtered through layers of autotune and pitch-shifting, condensed into 10 seconds.

I can’t stand it. And this is from someone who’s perfectly capable of enjoying genres like breakcore or gabber…

> this is from someone who’s perfectly capable of enjoying genres like breakcore or gabber…

An old person, you mean?

If 31 is considered old, then yes.

Not by me (I'm much older than that), but it's not particularly surprising if somebody who's 31 and enjoys music from 25 years ago isn't down with the kids.

I just mentioned gabber and breakcore (“music from 25 years ago”) because those are genres that people typically consider a bit too much. I could have name-dropped the SVBKVLT label [1] for a contemporary example of electronic music I like, that might be too much for the average listener; but I don’t think it would have rang a bell for most people on HN…

Anyway, I was never really “down with the kids” per se in terms of pop music - I found the genre too vapid for my taste. But it was at least some sort of music. These TikTok soundbytes (I would consider “music” a misnomer) on the other hand are downright sonic torture devices straight from some MKUltra mind-control cookbook.

[1] https://svbkvlt.bandcamp.com/

I think that might be a part of it, but also it is also kind of the equivalent of the guy in the 1980s and 1990s with a boombox making you listen to music on the metro, or in the 2000's/2010s making you listen to his music from his cellphone/bluetooth speaker.. but now its like every single person is cabable of doing this..

My roommates 35 year old brother from russia stayed on our couch for a few months(escaping the draft) and didn't have a laptop, just his iphone.. He would just spend hours watching tiktok with that annoying bro-step/ableton core tik tok crap on his iphone speakers.. completely unphased by it... eventually I got used to hearing it in the background as well. The guy has headphones but this is something that seems to be normalizing. I see this on the bus and train as well

Very much this. I briefly dated someone who uses tiktok. I hadn't had direct exposure to it until one day she started watching next to me. It drove me absolutely nuts within 10 minutes.

http://archive.today/kKf6p

Is this like "Video killed the radio star" thing? YouTube has also made a great change. This seems to me like the next step.

Today we stand at the edge of a great abyss. Tomorrow, we take a giant step forward.

-- Leonid Kuchma

Wait until they see what AI does to the music industry.

- Anyone can license Taylor Swift to make any new song of their choice. Or perhaps Elvis and Whitney Houston in duet.

- Firehose of interest-driven novelty music, generated on the fly.

- Everyone can create music without training, instrumental talent, or vocal ability.

It's coming fast [1].

[1] Source: I'm working on this.

Oooo!! I've been waiting with bated breath for this... but, mostly because (from my experience doing DMCA advocacy work and testifying on the other side of the table from them before the US Copyright Office) I'm pretty sure the RIAA will go nuclear with lawsuits against any such product and we'll finally see the epic showdown of AI vs. traditional copyright interests (which, to me, doesn't sound so good for you... but maybe you have a really great plan ;P).

How will you manage the inevitable novelty crash? I’m assuming people will get bored of having 10,000 knock off Taylor Swift songs quicker than they would of her normal release cycle. In the real world there is tension and release, ebb and flow, etc. Without it I think novelty wears off very fast or burns you out.

Is it any good? I'll believe it when I hear it.

> Everyone can create music without training, instrumental talent, or vocal ability.

No, they can't. It's calling a child that bangs on the piano a pianist. At least the child isn't ripping off anyone.

No such thing as the music "industry".

According to 'Betteridge's law of headlines' the answer to this question would be a No. According to the comments here, I am not so sure.

TikTok is the worst thing to happen to anything it involves. Children, music, internet, advertisements, etc.

Going to be very interesting to see what long term repercussions this attention span shortening craze will have on our society.

I have friends who can’t even sit through a film anymore, let alone read a book or stay focused on one thing for more than a few minutes.

I've definitely noticed this both with myself and others younger than me who either grew up with short-form entertainment or heavily adopted it later on.

Anecdotally speaking, the rapid context switching has a massive effect over time on a person's ability to concentrate. It's a lot harder to focus on anything without the physical and mental urge to fiddle with something and scroll through short videos.

I haven't looked into whether or not there's significant literature on this though; definitely would be curious if this is indeed a worsening trend

I read "Dopamine Nation" recently and TikTok "ticks" so many negative boxes. Having lost hours to this ultimate time wasting app, there is no chance my kids are getting this on their phone.

As the book hypothesizes, poor Dopamine regulation and the increasingly prescribed medication to treat this are becoming the norm. Particularly among working classes who have poorer earning potential and engaging work.

Tiktok is literally mind numbing.

Indeed. The crazy thing is that we’ve come not just full circle, but full spiral. I used to tell people that the internet is better than zapping on TV, and other consumption media, precisely because you are in control – nothing will happen without you choosing to.

All of the above is not just false today, but we have even more passive entertainment. TikTok has been promoted precisely because the only feature is zapping, for the vast majority of users.

As a side note, IMHO good ol' zapping (on TV) has been effectively killed a long time ago, when "modern" TV's came out.

Once changing channel was instantaneous, since several years it has a delay/lag that takes most of the fun out of it.

chinese version severely limits usage to teens for something like 30m/day

The real problem (in the US) is that for many many people on the app there’s absolutely nothing real to really look forward to. There’s a bit of a doom on a lot of the younger generations who are gonna be the ones to handle the effects of climate change, have insane costs of living, education, and healthcare. They have zero representation in any policymaking, as they enter their 20s to their 30s and now their 40s.

Let them have a thing that makes their day a little brighter, or if you’re in an older generation encourage your peers to get out of the way so they can fix the damn problems.

The worsening trend is what it takes to survive, let alone thrive in the US, and tiktok is something that people would pay less attention to if there were more agency to have better lives and not just slave it away for some holding company’s shareholders.

So the solution to growing up with fewer opportunities and a difficult future ahead is to drown yourself in distractions so you don't dwell on how crappy things are? Man. Bleak.

It’s because whatever the next step is is far off in the distance, and very gatekept. People don’t have much opportunity, and frequently don’t have much in the way of community either.

Yes it is bleak. I still believe it’s still possible to have a lot of agency but meeting basic needs is so difficult. Scraping by is how many people will live their entire lives. I moderate some online mental health communities and it’s basically assumed that nobody can access mental healthcare except for hospitalizations (which then bankrupt you after). It’s a huge privilege to have access to even be helped with the tools to make your life better.

Like that sibling reply said, sounds more like a death spiral than anything else.

The problem with collective suicide is that it impacts more than just the ones doing it.

Grammar pet peeve: this is the wrong way to use “let alone.” The “bigger” thing should be listed second, not first:

“He wasn’t capable of lifting a mouse, let alone a 500-lb weight!”

“She couldn’t see her hand in front of her face, let alone an iceberg on the horizon!”

So in your example, you would say “I have friends who can’t stay focused for more than a few minutes, let alone watch a movie or read a book.”

Reading a book is bigger than watching a movie though?

But staying focused for a few minutes isn't.

He phrased it "Can't do X, let alone Y or Z" where Y > X > Z. Reading a book (Y) takes longer than watching a 90 minute movie (X) which takes longer than staying "focused on one thing for more than a few minutes" (Z).

It should be Y > X and Z > X

Thank you very much for this! I was reading the original comment and I was actually confused on the correct syntactical order of this phrase. For years I struggled in the back of my mind for how to parse this phrase, now I get it.

Reading a book might typically take more time total than watching a movie, but books are often read in shorter increments, whereas a movie is usually watched straight-through in one sitting.

> The “bigger” thing should be listed second, not first

Do you have a link for this grammatical rule?

To be honest, I can't sit through many films anymore. I think it has more to do with the degradation of film quality and the rise of quality TV shows. I almost guarantee those same friends will watch entire seasons of long TV shows which are still pretty long form (1 hour episodes).

I get what you're saying and it's concerning, but there are also counter examples. Podcasts are ever more popular, for example.

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