Ask HN: Why is precision mouse pointer control not possible sitting on a couch? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Why is precision mouse pointer control not possible sitting on a couch?

12 pointsandrewstuart27 comments

Any gamer knows that console controllers don't have the same level of precision pointer control as sitting at a desk using a mouse.

That's why any first person shooter game can be played more precisely using PC and mouse compared to console controller sitting on a couch.

But I started wondering, why is this not a solved problem? Is there truly no way to have the same level of precision sitting on a couch? Has there been any research into this topic, any big company actually tried to come up with a way to have mouse-on-desk level of control whilst sitting on a couch?

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Layman’s opinion but two perspectives on this from physical motion might be interesting.

I guess the position of the mouse is determined by wrist joint plus fingers and many muscles in all of these act together to perform fast and precise movements. Controllers typically feature sticks each controlled by only one finger and it’s muscles. The fewer muscles involved could mean fewer options for combined complex/fast movements.

Also with a mouse a larger physical plane (some houndreds of square centimeters) in real space is translated into virtual space. With a controller the movement inside a very few centimeters is relevant and the smaller movements simply are not as precise as larger ones when projected into the same virtual space.

Because when you stop moving a mouse, your crosshairs stops moving. But with a controller, you need to re-centre the joystick to get your crosshairs to stop moving. You need to actively do something to make it stay on target, versus a mouse where once it's on target, you just stop moving it.

Have you never used a joystick? They all "recentre" automatically when you stop pushing/pulling it. Same principle, stop moving the joystick, the crosshair stops.

Still more inaccurate than mouse, but that's not the reason.

The "automatic" re-centre-ing isn't instant and momentum inevitably carries your crosshairs past the target. It's literally the reason no one is as accurate with a controller as most are with a mouse...

That and the fact that a mouse moves your cursor in a direct fashion whereas a joystick on a controller changes the rate at which the cursor moves a certain direction. Fundamentally different mechanics.

Why not just use a mouse? Grab a mousepad, slap it down next to you and put a keyboard in your lap. Lean back and have fun. Depending on your couch’s material and your mouse’s DPI, you may not even need a mousepad.

Was going to post this exact same thing. Currently writing this comment sprawled out on the couch, mouse next to me, working just fine on the fabric. TV is just a big computer monitor in practice. Works great!

When I used to work and game from bed, I switched from a standard trackball to a handheld trackball.[1] There was a learning curve but not much of one, and eventually I got adept enough with it to play some online multiplayer FPS games with it.

1: https://www.amazon.com/ELECOM-Bluetooth-Thumb-operated-Track...

The mouse as a controller is an amazing fluke, If asked to design the perfect controller for a first person game no one would build a mouse. But that thing designed to point at stuff on the screen turns out to be unmatched at looking around in 3d space. I think it is the huge range of precise motion it affords, hundreds of millimeters vs the single digits afforded by most other controllers.

So for the couch... I don't know... perhaps a vr hand controller would work. I Have never tried one, so I do not know if they are as precise as a mouse.

The keyboard is the weak point in the mouse and keyboard setup, it is nice because it has a lot of buttons, but there is no subtlety to it, just a bunch of binary buttons. does any one make a one handed thumbstick controller? Something like the wii nunchuck controller. A long time ago microsoft made the strategic commander, a sort of captive mouse with a lot of buttons for your left hand. I never had one but it looked like a good idea. I have a spacemouse(if you squint it is sort of the same thing) but have never been able to map the controls in a way that felt satisfying.

Your point about keyboards isn't necessarily true anymore, since there are now a few keyboards with Hall effect sensors that allow for analog input. That's probably the future of gaming keyboards, but it can also be pretty nice for people using it primarily for typing, since you can configure the activation behavior (how much travel, etc) for each key to perfectly match your preference.

My WAG is because a mouse allows control using the full range of muscles from putting your back into it to delicate fingertips and the shoulder, wrist, and elbow in between.

And that’s how our bodies are wired. Anything that requires isolating muscles will not be as kinesthetic.

I think that’s why old people tilt and shift and swing Xbox controllers…and why old people can play the Wii.

But again that’s just a wild ass guess.

Consoles need standardized control inputs so games can be ported easier. That’s why all controllers kind of evolved to look the same over the last 20 years or so (and why companies like Nintendo always have strange input devices).

There are more effective devices that get around the bad ergonomics of trying to used a mouse on the couch; basically trackballs in controllers.

https://www.yorku.ca/mack/FuturePlay2.html

https://www.pcgamer.com/nvidia-trackball-controller-patent/

https://hackaday.com/2016/01/10/putting-a-trackball-inside-a...

Looks like, this is because desk is physically much more controllable environment, than couch.

For example, to use mouse, you need precision distance from sensor to gaming surface.

It is possible to use some expensive technologies, to achieve high precision on couch. For example, good precision have optical trackers used in movie production mockup, but they are expensive. They are slightly slower than best mouses (about 200Hz measurements frequency), but I think, good enough for most gamers.

https://arstechnica.com/video/watch/how-the-callisto-protoco...

In the past I've used a lapboard for this. You can buy fancy ones or build something simple with padding attached to a board/plank.

Basically just makes a temporary "desktop" on your lap, giving you a flat, somewhat raised surface to place a keyboard and a mousepad.

In fairness, I rarely play games with kb/m from the couch anymore, and the arm of the couch (or my leg, etc) are fine for simple things like scrolling on a website with a wireless mouse. But for games or more detailed UIs I still break out the lapboard if I'm using the TV as a monitor.

Presumably with all the billions of dollars in gaming, the research has been done and its simply not possible to get desk and mouse precision sitting on a couch.

I am absolute garbage at playing Battlefield on Xbox and I know I'd be better with a mouse.

Seems someone is trying anyway: https://hackaday.com/2021/09/04/giving-a-console-controller-...

You can have same level of control... By using a mouse from couch. Just don't think putting a mouse on your sofa will do.

The reason you can aim better on a table chair is mouse + being able to move mouse using not only your wrist, but also you arm.

When on coach, you just need to be in a position where your arms are not restricted to help guiding the mouse.

You can also try steam controller which is far better than other controllers for mouse type of games.

Valve attempted something like this with the steam controller, which features touchpads instead of joysticks. I've never used one myself so I can't vouch for its effectiveness.

Corsair makes a small keyboard and mouse surface that you can rest on your knees while sitting on a couch, they call it the Lap Dog. It might be the best option at the moment for using a mouse from a couch.

The steam controller was awesome, to me, but a lot of people hated it. I think it was ahead of its time and I think they abandoned it too soon.

The steam controller touchpad in trackball mode for coarse look(and quick spins) plus gyro for fine aim work really well.

I think it works so well because both are direct like a mouse, unlikely a joystick which is good at setting a rate of change.

Steam Deck is the refinement of this control scheme. Unfortunately they don't offer and nobody else does either a standalone controller with the layout.

Gyros also work well for aiming with mouse-like precision. Especially with the "Flick Stick" layout. You can set this up with a PlayStation 3/4/5 or Nintendo Switch controller on PC.

https://youtu.be/PJIqEX93vL8

>precision mouse pointer control while sitting on a couch

>why is this not a solved problem

Despite tech products & startups offering increasingly frivolous solutions to equally frivolous problems, the "I love solving hard problems" crowd hasn't quite reached the point of wanting to risk it big to help you click better from your sofa.

Valve did a lot of research and built a controller to solve this problem. A small trackpad assisted with gyro aiming seems to actually bring you close to a mouse. I think there was some article published when they released the Steam Controller.

I wonder if it has anything to do with not wanting it to feel like you're cheating?

Couldn't something like a kinect apply eye tracking and bias the pointer towards known recent things you looked at?

It'd be cool if there was something like mouse mode for the typical controller.

Turn it on, then move your hand to the top of that side of the controller, slide it around on a surface, voila mouse.

Maybe a controller that reads muscle contraction from the wrist. It could read position like you were using a ghost mouse, and much more.

I've imagined a small optical mouse that you attach to one finger or two, maybe the thumb.

Feels better than a touch device.

Blackberry pearl is the input device you're looking for. Just have to build it yourself is all.

Why not use a mouse and your thigh as a mousemat?

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