What's your time worth? “Can you keep the change and I can leave?” | Hacker News Reader

What's your time worth? “Can you keep the change and I can leave?”

sebastianmarshall.com

16 pointslionhearted23 comments

OK, so I sorta get the point of the article, but I think this is a really bad example.

He is stopping for coffee. Stopping being the key word here. This, for most people, involves adjusting your commute to go into the coffee shop, place your order, pay, leave and resume your commute. The line-waiting time is probably a small fraction of the overall time such. The exception to this might be very dense areas like NYC where you can walk to work AND pass 4 Starbucks outlets. Then the commute divergence is very small. I think this is the exception though.

A better suggestion might be "buy yourself a K-Cup machine, then you can make a cup of coffee yourself in 30 seconds without having to leave your home/office/work RV/whatever.

Sure, time is money, but this is measuring it the wrong way, IMO.

Coffee is irrelevent. It's any line.

I did it at a bakery right before I wrote the post. The guy who was tidying up seemed legit happy to get a bit of extra cash and I got out of there faster.

I was thinking about the 'time is money' meme the other day, as it's one that seems to get traction very quickly with a lot of people - I've used it myself in a few situations (regrettably) and discussed it with others.

There are quite a few fundamental problems I see with it:

* It is frequently used as a validation for not doing something undesirable or even just something unanticipated. Opportunities can and do arise in the strangest situations, and sure - sometimes it's clear that it's not worth pursuing a lead - but claiming that your personal time vs. some calculated reward is the justification is often (I've found) just a quick exit clause

* The implication for people who do wait in line is that they are inferior to you, since they somehow fall below the 'worth' measurement - I would never want to even suggest to people that they're somehow less valuable, since I don't believe that people ever are

* It can quickly spread to other areas of your life - it's a gateway drug in the absorption of economics into daily life - are friends money? Are experiences money? Few people would admit to it, but for some people both of the above already apply.

* Personally, I find it an affront to the idea that services should be provided fairly. If it were possible to non-disruptively allow some customers to be served more quickly based on an open, public pricing scale, then perhaps I'd reconsider it (airline priority queues are a possible comparison) - but this is queue-jumping based on bribery. The suggestion that this behavior is, in fact, positive and likely to indicate success in life is one I find pretty disgusting.

Just want to address this -

> The implication for people who do wait in line is that they are inferior to you, since they somehow fall below the 'worth' measurement - I would never want to even suggest to people that they're somehow less valuable, since I don't believe that people ever are

You set the worth on your own time. If everyone pitches in an extra buck to move faster, Starbucks (or 7-11, or whatever) will hire extra staff or something.

I'd rather have less stuff, and more time to work on research, recruiting, building, staffing, reading, relaxing, family, etc. Most of my free time lately goes into either reading or thinking about the orphanage I'm building, so that's what waiting in line is screwing up at the end of my work obligations. It's a great trade for me, but everyone sets their own values.

> * The implication for people who do wait in line is that they are inferior to you, since they somehow fall below the 'worth' measurement - I would never want to even suggest to people that they're somehow less valuable, since I don't believe that people ever are

Personally, my distaste for waiting in lines isn't because I think those people are "beneath" me somehow, it's because in my experience, people are so wrapped up in getting what they want that consideration of the people waiting behind them often goes out the window. I don't mind waiting for things that inherently take time, but I get really annoyed when entitled people waste others' time because they can, because they are not used to taking 'no' for an answer. The customer is always right, donchaknow. And the probability of this happening increases with the number of people in line.

But, I agree with your overall point that "time is money" is typically a poor justification.

I think pulling that off (the skip the line for coffee trick he writes of) without coming off as an ass would be difficult. But, at the same time, it could be argued it's the people that don't care how they come off and just go for their gold are the ones that really succeed.

20+ years ago, when cell phones were fairly rare, I was in line at a Roasted Chicken franchise, and there was a large sign on the wall that said "for faster service, call your order in. 555-6789".

So, while 5th in line, I called the number, expecting to get a call center to take my order. Before I realized what was happening, the cashier at the front of my line stopped taking the order from the in-person customer and took my call.

Boy did I feel like an ass.

Are they really the ones that "really succeed" or are they just really loud about it which makes it seem that way. That just sounds a lot like the sort of stuff you'll read in those "how to succeed in business" books. I could be wrong but I'm skeptical. There's a big different between going for their gold and being a totall asshole too. They don't always exist at the same time.

I agree with all of that. My comment was skeptical in nature. My personality is very aware of "being an ass" so sometimes I wonder if I should have been an ass in some situations. There is probably a good medium between the two extremes.

I know what you mean. I'm hyperaware of other people's feelings too and that can put you at a huge disadvantage. I think it's all situational though. It depends on who you surround yourself with. In the end I think that what's more important than being an ass or being respectful is the ability to gauge others' temperaments. If you can do that then you can adjust yourself to the situation. Some situations call for asshole behavior. Some people only respond to force. In other situations being humble will win over people.

When faced with a long line I just pull out my smartphone, launch my e-book reader, and read a few pages while I wait. This is one of the few times when multitasking is a good thing, IMO.

This "downtime" also gives us a rest away from work. I actually appreciate this time as I can plan my next "productive" time better.

The spit in his coffee is just another bonus.

I've tried actively thinking in terms of time-is-money before. It helps when you're in analysis paralysis, to force yourself to just make snap decisions and do impulse buys every once in a while (which often end up being the decisions I'm most happy with). It doesn't help at all in just about any other case. People have a limited amount of mental energy to spend each day. "While I'm wasting my time doing X I could have actually been doing the more productive Y" is usually a lie.

>> "While I'm wasting my time doing X I could have actually been doing the more productive Y" is usually a lie.

You also have to consider whether Y is cuter than X, and if she even likes you.

The first sentence of this post sounds ungrammatical, which didn't put me in a good frame of mind to read the rest of the post:

  "How much do you value your time at?".

Now I have to go and buy some Christmas Presents. How do I avoid waiting in line for that?

What about the disutility from alienating everyone else in the coffee line?

Yet another example of how private incentives (to the cashier) trump public good...

> What about the disutility from alienating everyone else in the coffee line?

You can believe this or disbelieve this, but by far the most common reaction is along the lines of, "I wish I had the balls to do that..."

As much as I would love to do this, I don't think I could ever bring myself to. If the line is more than about 4 people long I just turn around and walk out, unless I really need whatever the line is for. I'll wait at the post office, but I ain't waiting for the soccer mom to recharge her Starbucks account using a bonded credit card from Mozambique or whatever. That's a simpler way to avoid wasting time that doesn't involve giving me special treatment.

But anyway, I think it is unhealthy, for lack of a better word, to think in these terms. You'll start stressing yourself out about how much money you're wasting (because time=money) in scenarios where wasting the time is unavoidable (traffic, spending time with in-laws, etc.)

Actually, I cut traffic, people who don't treat me well, and all that stuff too. But it's not money, it's about time being the very most important thing.

I want to spend it all doing really amazing things with good people, and none of it on wasteful terrible uses of time that most people are under the mistaken impression are unavoidable.

It's not your duty to suffer stupidly for no reason. Really. Just because someone else suffers stupidly for no purpose doesn't mean you have to.

Everything I've ever read from this guy makes him look like an asshole. At first you think it makes sense, then you think about it for a moment and you realize that it isn't a good idea.

Paying extra is not the solution. Doing something while you wait may be one. But I doubt 30 to 60 minutes a week is really worth paying anything extra. Stay up 5 or 10 minutes later every week and you make up your "time saved by paying" except for free. Plus the 5 minutes really won't mess with your sleep pattern.

I remember the last post I read where he called his entire staff a bunch of jokers, tried to make a point about being exceptional, and made everyone involved look like jokers anyway. I think this guy might do this stuff on purpose. It really gets people talking and you know they say any press is good press.

I like this feedback, this is good. Just two things I'd clarify -

> Everything I've ever read from this guy makes him look like an asshole.

I have like zero regard for traditional social decorum. I rub a lot of people the wrong way. But I'm also the guy that actually goes to bat for people when they crash, when times are tough, when something needs to get done. I've taken a lot of people out of the low point of their lives and built them up, and everyone around me does pretty well across the board - fun, work, wealth, social lives, experiences, getting out of the comfort zone, etc.

> But I doubt 30 to 60 minutes a week is really worth paying anything extra.

Depends on your goals in life. Most people would dislike my pace, but I get an immense amount done. Much of what I do has no direct gain for myself, it's just making the world more into the kind of world I think we ought to live in. 30 to 60 minutes is coming directly out of my reading or charity time if I wait around. Cutting sleep isn't the answer - I'm already slightly sleep deprivated; if anything, I need to sleep more to get to sustainable levels.

Anyways. Am I an asshole? Maybe. My feelings aren't hurt if you think so. But moving fast, being demanding, not pussyfooting around -- it has drawbacks, but leads to immensely more ability to do good big things in the world.

I think you are an asshole. But I can respect that. Honestly, being an asshole doesn't mean you can't be a perfectly likeable, great person. I'm willing to bet you're one of those guys who people say "you'd like him once you get to know him". What I like about your style is that you might come off at first as trying too hard. Trying for what? Some might say superiority, maybe to gain attention, maybe even love. But then when you get backlash you still defend your points to the end. A lot of people say they don't care what others say about them but I honestly think you're the real deal. I don't know how you did it but you just mindfucked me into liking you from thinking you were a dick. Bravo, man.

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