Apple - Ergonomics - Introduction | Hacker News Reader

Apple - Ergonomics - Introduction

apple.com

51 pointsrjim8630 comments

I wonder why this is on HN today? Maybe others, like me, wish that Apple produced an ergonomic keyboard?

While I love the keystroke feel of both wireless Apple keyboards, I really wish they had a split ergonomic version. After a day of coding, my wrists and for arms just ache constantly.

Or ......maybe this is on HN for some other reason.

Agreed. An ergonomic mouse would be great too. Apple's mouse is beautiful, but it's one of the worst possible designs in terms of ergonomics.

I was beginning to have some minor wrist pain which seemed to be from mouse usage, but I switched to a magic trackpad and I'm not having any issues so far. It's not suitable for all tasks but for basic desktop mousing it's great, and gestures are indispensable.

There are many vendors of ergonomic keyboards that are compatible with Apple hardware. Why do you wish for one to be produced by Apple?

Consistency of (beautiful) hardware design. Existing ergonomic keyboards are just plain ugly and it's a shame to pair them with Apple devices.

I still think Microsoft's "Natural Ergonomic" line looks rather nice: http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/natural-ergonomic-...

The darkness makes it clash with Apple's aluminum color scheme though, so they're not ideal desk-buddies.

If this puppy had all of the same keys as apple keyboards, id be all over it

http://i.microsoft.com/hardware/_base_v1/images/hero/cat_key...

This one too

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/arc-keyboard/J5D-0...

which keys are you looking for? I use a ms natural multimedia keyboard with my macbook and love it.

I use a ms natural keyboard and ms arc and both are great (arc has a mac feel to it)

Having a good default is the key to something being used.

I'm not at all convinced that "ergonomic keyboards" necessarily are that. But if an organization is serious about having ergonomic solution, they have to make it default, not option you can choose later ... 'cause the vast majority of people stick with the default option.

Apple is too bound by its notions of beauty and ID to produce a truly effective ergonomic keyboard. Ergonomic keyboards are nasty monsters because ergonomic correctness doesn't necessarily translate into aesthetically pleasing right angles etc.

I have a Kinesis Advantage keyboard at work, and let me tell you, it's an unbelievable pleasure to work with. No pain or aches in my hands or fingers at the end of a work day. It's a hideous beast, but my god, is it worth it or what... People also say that the keyboards have lifespans of ten years plus. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/

It's not pretty, and it's certainly not cheap, but it's one of those investments that makes a huge impact on your happiness, like a quality mattress or a really nice kitchen knife.

Again, I can't recommend this keyboard enough.

The Apple wireless keyboard is small enough that it might work to simply buy two of them, one for each hand. Instant "split" keyboard.

Funny that that page survived numerous apple.com redesigns, considering it's content is at least ten years old (http://web.archive.org/web/20010606134728/http://www.apple.c...).

Here's some trivia: Apple did make an ergonomic back in 1993 and they got sued for patent infringment over it. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Adjustable_Keyboard and http://tidbits.com/article/2676

I've tried numerous Apple mice, as well as the new trackpad. Every single one of them caused severe wrist pain, and I ended up going back to my cheapo ugly Microsoft or Logitech mouse within 1-2 days.

More subjectively, Apple's emphasizing mouse input over keyboard input was a mistake in hindsight. Easier for learning, but harder to use long term.

Is it just me or is it ironic that Apple almost exclusively sells glossy screens, but writes this:

Eye strain refers to ocular fatigue, eye discomfort and headaches associated from intensive use of the eyes. Common causes include:

glare on the computer screen

You have just as much glare on a matt screen, it's just defused. If you angle a glossy screen correctly, you'll have much less glare than a matt screen.

A properly-angled matte screen will have less glare than a properly-angled glossy screen. And a matte screen is less finicky about how it's positioned, which is an advantage when you are seated in a place that limits your options.

Plus the glossy bezel around the usable area of the screen acts like a mirror. The brightness of the active region overwhelms a lot of reflections, but that doesn't apply to the black bezel.

I work on a glossy iMac, and I've been tempted to get strips of matte black material with which I could cover the bezel, using magnets to hold them on.

  Cause: Unable to touch type    Solution: Learn to touch type.

http://www.apple.com/about/ergonomics/baksol.html

Apple page on ergonomics? How ironic considering that most of their input devices are more like torture devices. Beautiful for sure but suitable for human use.

"Sent from my iPad" lol

I think desks in general stopped being ideal after the switch away from writing on paper. Nothing new has caught on and it's quite unfortunate.

I like to work with a keyboard on my lap, and there are so few good options for it that it's incredible. My requirements are:

- some access to the mouse pointer. 1% of my usage still requires it. - shallow keys (like the apple keyboard). This is just preference. - apple cmd and option keys. - no numpad. - wireless and usable at up to 10 feet or so.

Doesn't sound crazy right? The only decent quality keyboard that meets those requirements is the Logitech diNovo Edge... the design of which I find just cheezy enough that I'm not into it.

I'd easily pay $200 for the right keyboard, but it just doesn't exist. In the meantime, I'm stuck using one of these: http://www.hekseskudd.com/products/abidextrous-wooden-tray-f...

Hmm,

In every flight I've been on lately, I've walked past a middle-age man in first class unconsciously wincing as he laboriously typing an email on his iPad with no keyboard...

So, sure the article is a fine general summary of physiological/"ergonomic" principles. But, having a bit of training in body work and movement, I have to say that many people are simply unable to notice debilitating situations until those situations are truly injuring them and then it is often too late - at least too late for a small change in routine to be enough.

So initial advice like asking one's self "do certain tasks or pieces of furniture and equipment stand out as awkward, difficult, even painful to use" are really less useful than they ought to be.

... Which is to say that having some detailed page on ergonomics doesn't make up for Apple's products flagrantly violating ergonomic principles - especially, Apple de-emphasizing the keyboard is bad regardless of their offering alternatives if you look really, really hard. The iPad is a further ergonomic disaster regardless of the fact "most people only use it a little" and "you can attach a keyboard to".

Using a pointing device for input is a disaster compared to a keyboard because it inherently involved more shock-per-byte-enter to the member involved than using a keyboard. Anyone concerned about ergonomics should stop doing that before they notice problems, not afterwards - which is not to say that people can't have other, serious problems around the other issues mentioned in the articles other sections.

Good ergonomics should not be about changing things once people a problem.

It's always seemed to me that Apple's view of their users is simply that they do very little actual typing- and they will be doing less and less as time progresses.

It doesn't really even seem like that inaccurate of a view. It is exceedingly rare I see any real typing happening on an Apple keyboard. Usually the most use I see them receiving, is the typing of a paper- at about 3wpm.

* typing either with a physical keyboard OR with an on-screen keyboard

There is useful information here, regardless of how old it is. But most of it relates to a desktop environment, and I've already begun to notice more repetitive motion annoyances from my mobile phone usage than I ever did from my desktop usage. Would love to see Apple and others emphasize ergonomic mobile use.

I can't wait to get that sexy 5' x 6' Apple cubicle shown in the work layout area.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hockey+puck+mouse

Jobs: Look at this mouse. It's the most wonderful mouse you've ever used.

I'm apparently in the minority and believe this will never be addressed. But since the topic's being discussed...

Laptop designs such as Apple's place a "ginormous" "shelf" in front of the keyboard. As a result, whenever I'm working on one particularly on a work surface whose height I can't adjust (conference room table, table at cafe -- where chair height also isn't adjustable, etc.), I find the front edge of that shelf digging into my wrists or forearms behind the wrists. This both slows my typing and quickly becomes extremely uncomfortable.

The Lenovo T420 is about the maximum shelf size I can tolerate (thanks for not messing that up -- yet -- Lenovo!). I had some older, smaller laptops in the past that were quite comfortable for typing because they provided enough room to rest my palms (without hitting the trackpad, by the way) without interfering with my wrists or my need to bend same when not in an optimal workspace).

I guess lots of people don't care or actually like that ginormous shelf; I hate it.

It's nearly 2012 and I'm still contorting my body to fit the computer's interface.

On a related note, I just found out that the neck injury (bulged/inflamed disc, pressuring the C6/C7 nerve) I developed three years ago effectively makes me uninsurable for ten years. Pay attention to your body, folks.

This is a joke, right? The design of Apple products make almost no effort to aid proper/effective ergonomic use. Good luck using an iPad or MacBook without destroying your neck/upper back.

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