Ask HN: How to leave academia? And where to go?

I've worked both in industry and academia (non-tenured). Reading your post gives me the impression that you haven't worked in industry and thus are afflicted with the grass is greener syndrome. Totally agree with @oumua_don17, most large companies are very much woke so they have similar peer-to-peer, be consensual and nice to one another ethos ... and nothing really gets done.

Since you are tenured and "have no boss", why don't you try being more assertive. Stake out your territory and growl at all intruders. Adopt a persona with more ego. Make wilder claims and deliver those papers, etc.

From what I have seen of European industry, there are many favorable situations for industry - academia collaborations. You could identify areas where your specialization can deliver desired results and contact companies in your area in relation to establishing R&D collaborations. In many cases, there are government subsidies and grants which make it even more enticing for industry partners.

I am currently in academia, I have tenured offers and I am thinking about industry for the same reasons as the OP.

I actually found his description to be a really accurate diagnosis of the issues that plague large organizations.

Big corporations will be the same, but small startups won't because due to their size and age entropy is low. Chains of command are short. There is little room for politics.

Of course, startups have lots of other issues. Long working hours and job insecurity. There is no free lunch. Management is hard.

> there are many favorable situations for industry - academia collaborations.

In the same vein there are research institutes as well. One of the best jobs I ever had was in HPC at an institute that was technically under the umbrella of a university.

I have to agree. OP gives off a sense that they don’t know how to draw boundaries well, this can end up with them stuck in a situation that is far far worse: having to be accountable to someone who doesn’t actively create the environment they are seeking.

You know what’s worse that being a tenured prof stuck going to endless pointless meetings?

Having a boss who tells you that you have to.

Being assertive in their current role is really the solution. They likely do not have to go to all of these meetings nor allow people to interrupt them all the time, they just can’t bear the cost of people finding those boundaries to be off putting.

Yes, of course being assertive is the solution, and that’s what I try to do every day, but it’s exhausting. I understand having to deal with people in every job, but the problem with academia is that you’re expected to do this all time. Today, the image of a successful professor is one that has influence over the largest amount of people and can get them to do his job and put his name on it. In case you isolate and/or push people off too much, invariably they’ll start looking at you funny and asking questions such as “what are you doing with your time?” (which I got asked recently, even though I’m teaching 8 PhD level courses a year, I’m one of the most productive staff of the dept in terms of publications, and I supervise 4 PhD students). The point is not that I can solve it, the point is that, according to the system which pays me, I shouldn’t. I’ve given up on climbing any career ladder whatsoever. I know what’s up there. All of this is caused by the fact that people in academia have no real goal that’s connected to the real world. Even if they are super successful, they can’t really get rich or make a lot more money. Here, if you get external funding, you don’t get a salary increase; the only thing you can do is pay other people to do your job. As such, “power” in academia equals “how many people you can influence”. This creates all kinds of bizarre, unhinged egotistical behavior.

I'm in academia -- a tenured professor in math, and in the United States. My situation is different, but here are my thoughts:

"You're expected to..." "the image of a successful professor..." "they'll start looking at you funny..." "climbing any career ladder" "power in academia"

If you have tenure, you have an incredible career luxury, namely that you can ignore all of the above. Personally, I have made the decision that I care about my reputation among (1) my collaborators and people in my research field, (2) several close colleagues whom I enormously respect, and (3) my students.

My colleagues at large? I get along with them fine, I am polite and friendly and so are they, but I don't care much what they think, and I certainly would not adapt my work to their vision of success. Nor would they, to mine.

This rat race of trying to gain influence over people... some people enjoy it. In my department one such person might become department chair next year. If he tries to get me to go along with his bullshit games, then I will smile, thank him for his advice, and ignore everything he said.

I don't know your situation exactly, but you might try simply tuning out the bullshit before jumping ship, and seeing what happens.

OP seems to be under the impression that if they had a boss telling them what to do, then they’d do away with pointless meetings and having colleagues put petty demands on their time…

It’s like, sorry but I’ve got news for you.

One can simply replace `associate professor` with `software engineer` and `European university` with `big software co` and still end up with the same questions.

You haven't mentioned if your job is toxic or not; if it is toxic then definitely finding something better is immediately recommended as nothing is more valuable than's one's health and sanity.

What I see as a good way out is to find ways to minimise the time you spend managing relationships with people if you really think they are a time sink. Or compartmentalise it such that it gives you those focused hours to work on the things that matter. What do other successful associate professors do? Speak to them if you haven't.

And I think you are painting a very positive picture of software engineering jobs. In fact except for initial grades, once you transition into staff/principal grades you will again end up spending a lot of your time managing the relationships with people (stakeholders, your manager, your junior engineers etc). And being very good at programming is a necessary but not sufficient trait even in good companies which minimise dysfunctional politics. You can easily deduce what's more important where dysfunctional politics is rampant.

I would second the option to take a leave of absence for a year, but speak with a few select people but in detail actually doing the roles in different companies you find interesting and then take the leave of absence if it's worth it. My bet most likely is that the results of experiment will say to minimise the negatives at your current workplace than starting from scratch. Either ways, Good luck!

>paradise is having a boss who says "code this"

How do you think it would be if you happened to fail miserably to meet your boss's over-inflated expectations?

In many European countries, leaving academia for a job in industry will make it hard to go back in case you don't like the new job. I'm a tenured full (CS) professor in Germany with some excursions to industry (research) and had to struggle quite a bit (and have a lot of luck) to be hired in my current position.

Maybe there are some alternatives you could try? Many universities offer the opportunity of a leave of absence for a year (or possibly more), so you could try out something else without having to fear losing your job - of course, your publication and funding record will still suffer, but this is maybe not so critical since you already have tenure.

Another idea might be to use some of the ideas from your research and try to commercialize them in a startup - perhaps together with some of your students? If this works well, you could also apply for a reduction of your position at the university to spend more time at the startup.

Also, applying for a position at a different university (possibly in a different country) might be an idea? Of course, this might be a less attractive option considering you just bought a house.

Thanks a lot for the response! A leave of absence is at the top of my list right now. The problem is, I have no idea where to start looking for a job to try out during the leave.

ah, which search engine / search terms have been tried?

?? start with a few of the terms in abstracts of papers of relevant interest ?? Can always add term(s) to filter things out aka only areas can get to via public transportaion; only research students worked with; etc.

Can always use public wifi like mc donalds instead of university account.

Writing on cellphone.

I went from private to academia. Fully understand your pain. When my contract expires in a couple of years I will apply to the biggest companies around me.

I'm in the IT sector, so I'll apply to any position in Barcelona, because I've visited and liked the city. My plan is to look at companies there and find LinkedIn contacts, if they are really hiring usualy they have referral bonus and that helps being acknowledged from the inside contact.

If that fails, I'll apply to all remote positions posible.

And if that fails I'll call my previous employer.

In your case, being a professor, I supose you could find some ITIL training, and then go to any process management position in companies above 1000 employees, they are always looking for smart people to understand their mess. They usually promote internally for things like this, so you'll have to contact their HR directly. Or you can contact their ceo directly in LinkedIn, they are just normal people, usually with high prioritization capacity, so send them a "Hello, I'm a professor of X and I like to change careers, could you let me know if your company has positions that would be suitable to my skills?"

And hope for the best.

As a professor, should be aware of various conferences in field for meeting/greeting others.

European countries offer quite a bit of hobby clubs/actities (relative to US).

This is a bit hard to say without knowing more about your background, of course :).

In Germany, there is a high demand from industry not only for people working on AI topics (duh!), but also in systems (OS, hypervisors, compilers, low-level security, etc.). A good starting point, of course, would be to contact companies you collaborated with, for example in the context of an EU project.

A professional network might also help to get in touch with relevant companies, for my area of research this would be HiPEAC (https://www.hipeac.net).

Since I'm working in systems, the high demand for graduates from industry makes it very difficult for me - as well as a number of my colleagues in Germany - to find PhD students. This is a bit frustrating, but I'm at least lucky to have very motivated students and TAs in my courses - though the number of students who want to work on advanced systems topics (for example, we are developing a microkernel in Rust for RISC-V in the context of a student project) is rather low right now.

Short answer: don't.

Long answer: I work as a software developer/data scientist in a company and I would commit murder to get into academia in a field that interests me. If the pay is okay and I can just focus on what I want - that's the dream. Like another comment says: Fight for your own resources (time) and make it clear when you want to work and when you're open for administration, etc. You're already in the best position to be able to do meaningful work.

Why not try a different university? Or a university in a different country?

I am also in academia but in a field that is not CS related and we get visiting professors all the time. You should do some research and see if you could apply for any research grants/fellowships in different countries or at least different universities in your area. You seem to be quite burned out by the drama at your institution and changing your environment could be beneficial. Just because things are managed poorly at your institution does not mean they are done equally poorly elsewhere.

Office politics and careerism are pretty inescapable wherever you go. If anything, they might be worse in the private sector because a lot of people there (more often that not the MBA types) are primarily motivated by money and power. They will be cut throat if it gets them what they want.

You might be better off making a list of causes you care about and reaching out to some charities/NGOs/non-profits/community organisations and seeing if they have any positions available that match your skillset. Alternatively attend some conferences or otherwise reach out to C-Level suite and see if you can identify some problems they have that you might be able to code a solution for. I imagine they would probably jump at the chance to get a tenured computer science professor as part of their tech team.

Alternatively, try setting some boundaries. Send an email saying you will only be replying to emails within two hourly windows each day (have a read of Deep Work by Cal Newport for more on this). Find an off-site work space, work from coffee shops or work from home to avoid unexpected visitors. Attend meetings remotely: if most of it is irrelevant you can work on other tasks simultaneously in a way you can't socially get away with in in-person meetings. Take a few hours or even days before responding to any instant messages - a lot of the time people will end up finding another way to solve their problems. Delegate any tasks you can to an assistant if you've got one.

I am a tenured math professor in the US. The top-rated answer suggests to be more assertive and forceful; personally, I think a bland approach might be effective:

Colleague: "I have an exciting new idea to design a new underwater basket-weaver!"

You: "Thanks. Sounds interesting, I'm afraid I'm rather tied up at the moment."

Colleague: "But if we build this, then agency XXX will give us $YYY in grant funding!"

You: "Sounds great. I have too many commitments right now, but good luck!"

Colleague: "I don't think you're seeing the opportunity here. Just imagine blah blah blah."

You: "Sounds exciting. I'm sure it will be a big success. Best wishes on your project!"

Colleague: "But... but..."

You: "Thanks again for the invitation. If you'd please excuse me, I have to go back to work." [Put head down and return to your own work]

You say you love working with people -- are there enough people whom you do like, that you can focus on working with them?

It’s a bit tricky, because at your level it’s a small world, and news of you applying elsewhere will propagate and may further complicate affairs at the home university!

Beginning with working in a startup might be an option. After a year or two industry experience, you can apply to bigger companies.

Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of EU universities like that, sometimes worse. Politics, politics, politics … literary killing each other for status, power and positions. Many of them couldn’t solve their own homework problems.

Curious, which country?

> Many of them couldn’t solve their own homework problems.

Good to hear.

Personally, it sounds exactly like the software teams I've been working on. Completely flat hierarchy, decisions reached by "consensus" (long, drawn-out discussions where the last man standing gets his way), introducing new technologies and ideas based on personal preferences and agendas etc. Since Agile became the norm, there are no managers in software enginering teams - the team is supposed to manage itself. In practice, it's exhausting.

I am not in academia - but the meetings you have described reminded me of the meetings I had during my PhD years. I was supposed to attend 1 or 2 meetings every year in different cities in France (it was joint work between different teams from different french labs). Your first realization (where nothing gets solved, no one to make final decision) was also my experience while attending those meetings.

Reading your post - it seems to me that you are not happy with kind of collegues/peers you are working with ("someone has to cover for someone else, people with larger ego can get other to do part of their job").

Whether you stay in academia or go to industry - you are likely to encounter the same problem depending upon the quality of peers around you.

If you are passionate about research, try moving towards top-tier european universities/labs (ecole polytechnique, tum). I feel that the research is more directed and you will have better peers.

I was in academia for a decade or so and was at stage of applying for academic positions and now work in a scale-up. I was in Genetics research and now work as a data scientist so not exactly the same but anyway.

The thing you lose leaving academia is freedom to work on whatever you want. What you gain is as you say a group of smart people working towards a common goal. About 20% of my team have PhDs! I now make more money 2 years in than I would have at Assistant Professor level. I also work remotely which means I can live where I want to and not where the university is. Overall I’m very glad I made the jump.

If you decide to do it I would say don’t rush into it and take some time to find the right position working with people you will enjoy working with.

Haha wow, let me tell you about this really game-changing idea I have, it will make us billions, all you need to do is code it up and I will "run the business". HA HA

On a more serious note, why don't you just do the bare minimal on your job as they say (I heard it virtually impossible to get fired from an EU job anyway) and become a consultant? Test the waters to see how it feels to have someone tell you to code stuff up and if the grass really is greener.

Separately, why not just set healthy boundaries? Just block off your calendar for a "personal work meeting" and get what you want done, and then help the snowflakes.

> which means people will keep knocking on your door all the time

Having an office and people knocking on your door is strictly superior to sitting in an open plan office and having people tapping you on your shoulder all the time. And four hours of uninterrupted coding time? Forget it.

Being in a virtually identical situation to yours (same position in Europe, same thing I hate about my job, same things that make me happy), I'd be happy to chat with you! Feel free to contact me at ouroboi.io@gmail.com

You are your own boss. You could work from home away from the office four days a week.

Private business, oil and gas is booming

the professor have more respect. but we need think some evil about env. how can we fixed that.

# think evil

introspection first of all I don't know what is the most beautiful, I don't know how much I don't know what is heaven But I have some basic experiences and lessons learned: Self-realization and discovery are deeper than the preaching and teaching of others. As a human being I still believe in some stubborn perceptions that sunshine is better than always night. Then freedom is better than being controlled everywhere, and patience is better than always being impatient. So it is better to have kind words than bad ones. It is better to keep an agreement than to break your word.

   does not know the supreme good, to what extent does not know the good
   If bad words had good results, there would be no wars.

 there do not have analyze and preaching, just experience and organize
  i have worked for different company, for beginner, i do not know so much danger and unbearable.
  first of all, some project only can live three month or more short. so that, "the company" need more project and more employee time work for that.
  if you have some intermediary introduce work to you, we need pay some attention on contract, company need abide by that. otherwise maybe employee need work 16hours and more. you can not give remuneration at last. 
  so that, you will doubt the similar people, otherwise, you need be asked for specialty screening, just for some work. south aisa, work for 9 hours everyday is every normal. I know that's hell if compared with a professor work.  and you would may be robbed because poor and tough survival environment.
  so that, the employee will face two reality: bad boss(language violence,even fight and low remuneration). poor environment and danger social environment.

 the problem of persistence
  there company unique or non-health help plan, and aways though more request work. in that situation, no body can in priority.
  so there just have more work to do, and low guarantee.
  otherwise, the company have resource and manpower governance , even bribe gov. thats why gov aways stand with company, they are interest community.
  where is the future?   a professor chould be have a good position in any company(more higher discipline than normal worker) in a good company.

  in the dark side, the bad company will have more strice env for live or just die. right?

 the reasons of bad company
  1 corporate enterprise too much negative news, new employee worked very clarefully, 
  2 so that, bad boss and employee mutual protection, even can not give normal working results
  3 managers are missing good skills. unreasonable rules lead to resentment, and they are not intend to change.
  4 too greedy, allocation is uneven.
  5 malignant interaction, language violence,even fight and low remuneration, more work, no freedom.

 we must work with evil or not?
  as those situation,  such as monitor employees and reject payment (becacuse those bad rule.)
  even than, they do not want employee provide products and services, they just torture.  we need to live, what we can do?
  the quality of the manager is too bad, but the employee must be under its management...

# the reslut I do not know if the world is is really too many programmers? so the env badly more and more. but here have some really base rule i believe: 1 people integration with even little interest, better only mandatory rule, that was really old summary 2 company manager in advantageous status, they can change the rule with their intent, employee just obey? how can employee face that in industrial society. 3 I agree the boss need talk them goals and intentions very clearly, that is why the employee work for them. but they can not horses, even spiritual. such as monitor and long time work, violence, argue. 4 they people who work as engineer and insist for that, they are must be love that, not hate for that at least. if they can give some remuneration on work, thats a good things. jut do not make life more hard. even love some work, that may be useed by boss for free work.

do some more chat: fateduck92@gmail.com