Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

I'm not sure if this will turn out to be quackery or snake oil, but the Super Gut book by William Davis makes some believable claims as to common causes of digest issues (along with solutions).

I would wonder if that happens in the gut too.

It is in many things. toothpaste, shampoo, dishwasher and laundry detergents, and lots more

Since people are trying to avoid SLS, MANY tricky marketing synonyms have appeared to obfuscate ingredient lists:

https://chem.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/rn/151-21-3

In general I low-key proselytize the practice of removing excess stuff from air using HEPA and carbon filters to make a space smell better, rather than adding even more shit to the air (candles, scented sprays, etc). Also the benefits of using “free and clear” products. And using just water or water+soap with a rag to clean countertops/surfaces rather than weird chemical disinfectants that leave a microbial-toxic film of chemicals on the surfaces like Pledge.

I personally use marijuana-growing carbon scrubbers to clean my home air, see TerraBloom products. It’s made a massive difference for my family.

There's a lot of commonly used chemicals that are irritants and disrupt how the body works, but are underneath the threshold of toxicity.

I take 1000mg of activated charcoal per day and feel better. It is paradoxical, because all charcoal does is absorb. It makes me think that everything we put into our bodies nowadays is poison. And if all charcoal does is absorb, maybe most foods are a net negative. My interest in fasting has piqued as a result.

I think we are entering an era of rampant industrialization wherein the products (food, soaps, cookware coatings, packaging materials, etc.) are not necessarily the best products on the market, but simply cost effective enough to put on the shelves--meaning if waste can get on the shelf through clever marketing and engineering then it will.

> In contrast, the residual substances on the cups washed in a household dishwasher with detergent B were not present at sufficiently high concentrations to exert cytotoxicity and impair the epithelial barrier function (see Fig E9).

They are notoriously bad at removing food residue, which must be sprayed or scraped off before running. Anything more than trace is cooked onto the dishes. They're really good at removing thin layers of grease quickly, and sanitizing. Doesn't surprise me at all that they don't do a final rinse; handling stuff right out of them leaves a distinct feeling on your fingers, like the opposite of bleach kinda. You have more friction than you should until they fully dry, it's very noticeable.

1. Rinse plates before putting them in crates

2. Slide the crates into the washing machine.

3. Close the machine to get it to perform a 3-stage cycle over 2 or 3 minutes: soap, sanitizer (usually some ammonium solution like in sanitizing tablets), then rinse.

I was able to taste bitterness after the rinse cycles and we were never in a rush, so I had the habit of re-rinsing the plates afterwards.

In restaurants I notice soap in my water or on the plate every now and then. It seems like most people don’t mind or notice. If you don’t feel the texture change or taste the bitterness of soap, you can see it by observing pearlescent colors on the surface of your drink.

I've never heard of either of these things before. Certainly not things on my, relatively fancy, dishwasher.

Is the salt for doing a softening process that substitutes for a whole house softener if you don't have one?

We live in a place with hard water and have no softener in the house (you should see our electric kettle when we haven't cleaned it recently). Recently the accumulation of what I assume to be mineral film has gotten a bit noticeable on the dishes that go in the dishwasher.

It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

rinse aid is for hard water. restaurants probably tend to not treat the water and the commercial dishwashers they use probably tend to not have a provision for salt. they operate very differently than your residential dishwasher.

So yes, completely unneeded if you have soft water. Most dishwashers don't have a provision for salt.

Also completely unneeded if you don't mind spots.

I've only come across this in Spain so far. Never seen in Norway. But maybe I just haven't been paying attention. Then again, the water in Norway in :chefskiss:

This is the real key, modern dishwashers have so many limitations in an attempt to reduce water and power usage they do an awful job. I wish there was more information on how to disable these features.

I agree with what you’re saying here in terms of the raw findings, but I wonder if as a society we’re approaching this question wrong. Specifically: if I proved that dishwasher detergents contained a toxic chemical (say: arsenic), shouldn’t dishwasher detergent makers now bear the burden of proof for demonstrating that it doesn’t remain on dishes? And isn’t it reasonable for people to treat this as major, worrying news just based on the precautionary principle?

> A professional dishwasher completes 1 or 2 wash and rinse cycles using 3.5 L of water per cycle. The detergent and rinse aid are automatically dispensed into the water at a concentration of 1.5 to 4 mL/L and 0.1 to 0.5 mL/L, respectively. At these concentrations, the residual dilution factor after rinse ranges from 1:250 to 1:667 for detergents and 1:2,000 to 1:10,000 for rinse aids.

So 1:10,000 is a plausible dilution of rinse aid in the rinse water. Unless people are drinking the rinse water (please don't), it's not a dilution that will ever be seen by the body.

Rather, what the body will see is however much residue is left on a mug diluted in whatever the volume of the mug is.

They do sort of address this:

> To study the chemicals in the residue remaining on the surface of dishware after washing, 10 porcelain cups (190 mL size) were subjected to 1 full washing and drying cycle in professional (Winterhalter, GS501, Germany) and household (AEG, GS60AV, Poland) dishwashers and then 1 mL of culture medium was added into them. After shaking and waiting for 5 minutes, the culture medium was collected from the cups, filter-sterilized, and added to the monolayer and differentiated cell cultures directly or in 1:2, 1:5, and 1:10 dilutions.

Except that they wash all the residues off in just 1 ml of medium. They then dilute that 1 ml onto cells:

> The LDH cytotoxicity assay on monolayer Caco-2 cells showed that the toxicity exerted by the dried rinse aid residue on the cups washed in a professional dishwasher still takes place even at a 1:10 dilution (see Fig E9, A). TEER and PF were also measured in differentiated Caco-2 cells, and parallel results were observed when exposed to rinse aid. High concentrations (1:2 and 1:5 dilutions) of the residue severely impaired the epithelial barrier function as measured by the decreased TEER values. In the 1:10 dilution, nearly the same TEER values were observed compared with controls.

So this isn't great, but it also doesn't seem like a big deal. You could rinse a cup in 10 ml of water, gargle with it, and be fine.

Yes, I believe there are studies that have found households that use detergents to wash their dishes have significantly high rates of allergies than households that only hand wash dishes. After hearing that, I started trying to try to avoid using detergent when possible. I think it makes a lot of sense-- really the majority of the powerful chemical detergents we use in the home are mostly unnecessary. They're just bound to leave residue that enters our bodies

With most home dishwashers, I have seen evidence of leftovers.

My suspicion is that modern dishwashers use too little water.

A colleague has his own coffee cup with a custom design, which he hand-washes. I might do the same.

Compare that to a 2.2 gallon per minute water/efficient kitchen faucet where you’ll approach the amount of water consumed by your triple cycle load after just 5 minutes of leaving your water running.

I always sanitized my baby’s bottles, either via boiling water or via sanitizing steam bag.

But also, yes rinse them after washing them, also use a baby bottle detergent instead of "full strength" or whatever.

And then sterilise them.

I don't use rinse aid, never have, you don't actually need it, you can just let the dishes air dry for slightly longer.

If you have hard water then soften it, rather than use a rinse aid.

You seem to be taking a diss at science. The point of science is to learn more about things, whether they are old school or modern. Science does not discriminate. People of course bluff in the name of profits for their own gain, but if you do not have knowledge about the things, you won't be able to call out the bluff.

I think other animals are used just as much (if not more) in industrial processes, I assure you there's no conspiracy to specifically oppress cows.

On the other hand if we were to learn that these synthesized products were actually good for you that would be surprising.

White vinegar is a very different product: it is not a surfactant, it is an acid. It means that it doesn't help rinsing, but it can remove scale. Both can prevent white stains, but the mechanism is very different.

If it works just as well, why don't dishwasher manufacturers use acids instead of rinse aid? You can argue that white vinegar is cheap and they they prefer you use expensive detergents so that they can make profit, but they could also sell you expensive acids, so I don't think it is the reason.

So what to do with it? Personally, I still use rinse aid because it is what the manufacturer recommends, and I have no better idea. It is not a significant expense, and according to the study, not as much as a problem with household dishwashers as it is with professional dishwashers (very different machines using different products).

This is probably some kind of detergent, although there are lots of different sulphonic acids.

I don't bother; I've tried it and haven't observed any effects.

It would be like my college apartment kitchen, so you could hire me as manager.