Something that's hard for me to explain is that "making friends is so hard it's easy"
What I mean by that is, social anxiety is so high, population-level self-absorption is so high, people are so lonely... that for the most part if you just approach someone and behave as if you're friends... they'll go for it.
There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)
This really doesn't ring true outside of school/university years. Back then, you are constantly meeting new people, and seeing them regularly in class and on campus. People that age don't have a "max occupancy" number when it comes to making friends. As an adult in the working world, the opposite is true.
Outside of that uni environment, a new person is going to have to knock your socks off with their personality, for you to even consider meeting up with them again. Most people cannot make a first impression that good.
Outside of school/uni, people are busy with daily life, and far less likely to chat with strangers. Friendship groups begin to quickly narrow around this time as well, as people get married, go to professional schooling of some kind, and start hanging out mostly with people that are very similar to them.
But loneliness is up among all generations, including those who are in the right time and right place (post-secondary). Many reasons for this as well, including the impact of internet and social media. People are less willing to give others a chance because Tinder/Tiktok/IG has trained them to think that another more interesting experience could be right around the corner.
My best friend for 20 years (we've since fallen out of touch), was someone I met in kindergarten?
How did we become friends?
My surname starts with a "G" and his starts with an "H" so we were seated next to each other
There was a girl who I couldn't stand in high school... but we bumped into each other in a train station on the opposite side of the country... and hung out all afternoon.
Just being from the same small town made an immediate (but brief) connection
It feels corny to say, but you really can't make old friends.
But this is so outside my perception of the world and that of everyone I've ever spoken to (across a swatch of demographics across North America and Europe).
Friendship groups narrow because it isn't EASY anymore (you're not all on campus).
Nobody actually desires for them to narrow.
If you can make it *easy* for the other person (by handling the approach, scheduling, etc). They'll be as willing as in uni days
That's definitely not true, or at least not my experience. Everyone I ask out to join me for various activities, has an excuse, usually busy or other plans with someone else, and they never follow up for a rain check.
People over 30, even single/child-free, seem to be very busy with their established routines, hobbies, and narrow circle of long term friends, that they just aren't open to new people anymore or at least making time for them, no matter how cool or sociable you are.
Seems like time is the main cuprit, or lack thereof. If you already have things to do and enough friends that occupy all your free time, or barley have enough time to meet the friends you already have, then when are you gonna meet new people?
Making friends is a two way street. You could be the coolest, funniest, most sociable guy ever, but if everyone you meet already had enough friends or feels they don't need you in their life then ....
The only shot to make this easy for you is meeting other loners.
Outside of work, the path is to join a hobby. Find a softball league or something like that. This has built in consistent interaction and fosters expansion into happy hours after the games or other activities.
If there's anyone in your circle of acquaintances that has a birthday, tell them you'd really like to buy them a beer to celebrate their birthday. Ask open ended, "Hey, is there a day this week you're free? I owe you a birthday beer." Most adults no longer get real celebrations for their birthdays and will appreciate it if there's not some other social hurdle (actually busy, afraid you are trying to date them, etc). Some of those social hurdles (like afraid it's a date) can be overcome by suggesting it's a group thing. To use the work example again, "Hey team, it's Susan's birthday this week. I think it would be cool if we took her to lunch or something. Anyone else in?"
To put context on this, I am introverted and autistic (very low social needs). I do these behaviors explicitly for outcome oriented purposes (bring people joy, grow career).
never ask a new friend to hang in X, where X is days away.
instead just do, i'm heading to this arcade want to join?
or i'm at coffee shop now, want to stop by and catch up.
this is how you can turn casual associates into friends.
if someone cool i knew asked me to spend 2 hours with them i'd get nervous.
plus, if they know that you are cool even without them they are far more likely to join you.
This is not my experience at all in my new host country. I tried this a lot and never got anyone to join. People here seem to have their schedule pre-planned, and expect you to schedule meetups in advance if you want them to join you. Sending texts like "I'm having a coffee in town, join me if you want" to people I just met always left me alone, with replies coming after 2+ hours or the next day like "sorry, I was busy/got other plans/saw your text too late".
It's how I spent my 30th birthday alone. I texted a bunch of people 10h in advance if they want join me later that Friday/Saturday night for birthday drinks and maybe going out dancing later. Out of about 12 people, nobody came. :(
It's a cultural issue I think in the German speaking part of Europe. Brazilians told me spontaneous meetings with people are completely normal there, but here people don't spontaneously join invites from people they aren't very close with and expect you to schedule these well in advance.
Which leads me to a point that is missing in the post, if you want to get to know new people, be open to new things. Just say yes if somebody asks you to go to the arcade, if you really can't but want to do something, follow up on the rain check.
Being desperate for friendships, in my experience, usually has the opposite effect of making people avoid you even more. Especially if you're over 30. People seem to be wired to think that "if you're a grown adult and have no friends by now, then it's probably because there's something wrong with you, and is risky for me to be the first one to take a leap of faith in you if nobody has done it so far". Usually people who already have many friends easily attract more, as it signals you're already a sociable and valuable "tribe member". Same with romantic relationships.
>Just say yes if somebody asks you to go to the arcade
That assumes there are people who ask you. If nobody asks you, then what? In my experience after I moved abroad, almost nobody asked me anywhere despite me learning the local language, making efforts to socialize, strike up conversations and exchange phone numbers. Even when I was the one initiating asking people to go places rarely end in a positive response. I think it's a cultural thing. The country I live now, people are very cold, distanced and keep to themselves, and meeting and engaging people you don't know very well is not really something wildly accepted.
Just kidding, I've met plenty of wonderful and sociable UK people, and the joke could work (or not work, depending on what you make of my lousy humour) on almost any country.
Edit: seeing your other comment about "German speaking parts of Europe", my next guess to use in a joke would be Germany, but similarly, I've met a ton of very sociable Germans.
I agree. At this point in life, I just want people to leave me alone. It seems like there isn't any time to make friends anyways.
I’ve had serendipitous conversations which were just fun. Nothing knocking my socks off. Just good conversation; we share numbers and I try to remember when we’re in the same area again.
> people are busy with daily life, and far less likely to chat with strangers
Couldn’t disagree more. Not everyone wants to chat all the time. But I’ve had loads of interesting conversations with strangers at bars and restaurants, coffee shop lines, airport terminals, sports-gear shops and of course holiday destinations.
Most people are so bad at conversation (waiting patiently for their turn to tell a completely unrelated anecdote), that just being able to have an organic chat is pretty "knock your socks off behavior"
I'll happily state the contrary:
Supply easily saturates demand at the university but after that most are on their own. So, demand stays the same but supply drops off (because you have much less available time).
So this is where you can shine.
> knock your socks off with their personality, for you to even consider meeting up with them again
No, I talk to people while waiting for the train or during my commute. I don't ask them to see them again, I just see them again because they have the same commute as me.
Always say hi but never give them the feeling that you expect them to spend time talking with you. This is also why it's easier to talk while waiting for the train, it's a limited time and they feel easier knowing that you won't be potentially annoying them during the whole train ride.
From there on it's easier, you slowly get to know a handful of acquaintances and you can easily "escalate" with the people you like.
> This is also why it's easier to talk while waiting for the train,
> it's a limited time and they feel easier knowing that you won't
> be potentially annoying them during the whole train ride.
Its a choice, basically. Not an easy one and there is no right or wrong here, but it’s not inevitable that midlife is characterised by social lockdown.
As others have noted, age matters. That’s well documented in the research from what I can tell but it’s also just a simple consequence of having marriages, raising children, etc… Coincidently that’s another set of life outcomes that are very impacted by place. Silicon Valley is known for that. “Man Jose” is not a great place to start a family, and career driven men from widely diverse ethnic and socio-cultural groups don’t form much of a community.
1. Trust hasn't been eroded (i.e. fraudsters/salesmen do not predominate)
2. There is an external stimuli towards making friends (i.e. socializing is being perceived as a good thing)
3. There is an internal stimuli towards making friends (i.e. disregarding #2 and all other personal needs met, one still feels the need to connect with others)
The fact that you've got the results you mention here shows that you live in a community with mentally healthy, although isolated, individuals. You'll find drastically different results in other parts of the world (third-world, for instance). Plenty of people wouldn't talk to you if they see no financial benefit in doing it (even a measly amount can have a profound effect). I used to make fun of this but it's not an easy thing to swallow and can get you quite depressed.
The "loneliness epidemic" is just a reflection of the eroded values and misplaced goals that are now commonplace around the world.
These are great points.
Places where it can be assumed people are comfortable with an approach:
- A public place/destination (bar is okay, bus isn't)
- They are not in the middle of speaking (lulls in conversations are fine)
- They are not blocking sensory inputs (don't approach if you see headphones)
This also isn't magic. My success isn't 100%. It's about 30%
Which means that 7/10 people don't want to talk to me (which is fine).
But it also means that I can pretty reliably make a friend/day if I were so inclined
A bit about me, I'm a short man (5'3") with pretty solid facial symmetry and good grooming but I'm NOT particularly attractive.
I'm putting that context because it is important:
- Because of maleness I'm automatically safer in most situations (as in, I can approach someone, go off solo w/them and be confident I won't be assaulted)
- I'm short, so I'm not REALLY a physical threat to people - Hygiene implies social consideration/health
- Facial symmetry automatically encourages trust
- Being TOO attractive (and I'm nowhere close) can be intimidating to some people
Typically takes about 3-5 meets to get there
I have become much more guarded and cynical in the past few years after a handful of interactions like this. At a bar or restaurant, and strike up a conversation with someone, only to have them, 15-30 minutes later, introduce me to their MLM, FX, Trading Mentor, House Flipping, etc. scam, and then swiftly disengage when I am uninterested.
I'm not a good looking dude, nor am I an extrovert. So I now just assume anyone approaching me in public is trying to scam me.
Fuck me. I can't even imagine this is a thing in the real world. It sounds like trying to make friends in the YouTube comments section.
I live in Ecuador, so third-world. The people here are not really after money, unless it's very easy to get. I mean, 30% of the "economy" here involves standing in the road with a mango, hoping someone gives you some coin for it (literally). Those same people could go get a real job and do some real hard work if they wanted actual cash. They don't. They like doing basically nothing and getting along okay from it. Not saying you're wrong, but latin america doesn't work this way.
1st world: NATO and allies 2nd world: The Soviet Sphere 3rd world: Everything else.
Doesn't it put you on Medicaid?
A bigger problem is that the limits are quite low (Max income limit will be exceeded by someone making minimum wage in a lot of states. It's only $18k if single, going up to $36k for a family of 4.
That means there's a HUGE donut hole problem of making too much for Medicade, but not nearly enough to actually afford healthcare - or they maybe have some crappy employer plan that has a high deductible that would bankrupt them to even approach.
It's *hard* v. *complex*, but it doesn't take as long as you'd think.
- Approach
- Chatting for an hour
- 10 texts back and forth to coordinate a meet
- Meet for 90 minutes
(repeat the last two bullets 3-5 times)
Is a pretty reliable path to "good friend".
Good friend is defined as: "Will reliable hang with you, schedule permitting 60% of the time you ask... and you will both have a good time"
Good friend is not, "Will donate a kidney"
Acquaintances are indeed easy to make. The problem is, that kind of relationship is fragile and transient and superficial. I think most people want more. I know I do.
In a strange way I even feel that it can be a testament to the strength of the underlying friendship that we can pick up where we left off after years of minimal contact. I'm actually grateful for these kinds of relationships. I really don't have the time, energy, or desire to keep up ongoing text/email/social media conversations with all these people, but when we are able to meet up I have a great time and find it hugely valuable.
Sure, but you have to actually do that from time to time.
I've lost count of the number of people I thought I was really close with who moved away insisting that they would keep in touch, and then I never hear from them again, ever after reaching out.
(Having kids is another reliable "friendship"-killer.)
Kids could possibly do the same especially if your friends are not also having kids at the same time. Kids can also easily contribute to the making of new acquaintances (parents of other kids) as well. These might turn into friendships, or might fade out quickly once the kids' interests diverge (or they grow up and leave the nest).
I have a rather tighter notion of a "good friend". It includes things like "will not steal from me", "won't betray my confidences", "will be straight with me". Otherwise they're just mates; people I feel OK hanging out with.
I have no good friends just now, and I haven't had good friends for quite a few years. I don't think my standards are exacting; I have mates, but I just wouldn't rely on them. I'd be quite surprised to learn that they were relying on me.
A good friend is a scarce treasure. If you're lucky enough to have one, hang on tight.
[Edit] I don't think you can plan to make a "good friend". It involves trust, which involves time. You can make friends with someone in an evening, but I've never had a "good friend" that I've known for less than a few months. All of my good friends were people I'd known for several years, but it doesn't need to take that long.
Nothing too emotionally intense. Just a loneliness balm and reliable cool hangs
However, thinking about the process this way makes it really apparent that I've got no desire in trying to make friends -- each of those steps individually feels like a nearly insurmountable nightmare for me... much less doing all of them (and more than once!).
The little bit you know about me from this thread... would you want to grab a beer if all you had to do was read the text and confirm you were available?
These steps ARE scary for some people... and that's okay... I'm happy to do it. I just want to get to you know you!
I'd probably choose not to grab a beer -- unless the social cost/effort in saying no was higher than saying yes. Quite likely I'd feel put upon with having to respond in a way that I thought didn't offend you...and all by pithy text messages. What a hassle!
Totally get that's a me problem though and I'd fall into your 70%.
Thanks for the insights though -- I find the concept of friendship fascinating (if perplexing).
I told you what I’m about.
You told me your preferences.
They don’t mesh, so we both split after having spent a pleasant 90 seconds
This is true, but only if you're attractive and somewhat charismatic. I would say that means it doesn't apply to the majority of people (who are plain or ugly and not particularly charismatic or actively repulsive).
I roll my eyes when I hear quotes like, "Judge a fish by it's ability to fly and you'll think it's a failure"... but there is something to that.
Maybe you're chocolate and those people just prefer vanilla?