It's in biology where you still have ample low hanging fruit in terms of experiments. I feel if you're a brilliant physics grad in 2022, don't waste your time on string theory - apply some of that knowledge to chemistry and biology
It's in biology where you still have ample low hanging fruit in terms of experiments. I feel if you're a brilliant physics grad in 2022, don't waste your time on string theory - apply some of that knowledge to chemistry and biology
I wonder how much contact you have with the world of research in theoretical physics that lead you to this conclusion. More to the point: do you have any, or is this person your only source of information?
Do you know that phenomenon where you think you're learning good information from a source, until that source talks about a subject you're an expert in and you realize they have no idea what they're talking about? That's how I feel every time I see Sabine hossenfelder on HN. I have a PhD in theoretical physics in a string-adjacent field[1], and my view is that this person has had negative net contribution to physics. First by contributing zero from poor research, and second by detracting by spreading the impression amongst the general population that experts aren't really experts, they don't know what they're talking about, are stupid or corrupt etc etc. Seems to be the theme of the 2020s that the most incompetent of any field become financially the most successful by making a business out of writing about how their colleagues are ignorant.
[1] my experience interacting with the kinds of muppets that are fans of Sabine is that at this point you'll have learned the argument that "well of course you think that way, that's because you're in the system and benefit from its rotting, being a PhD in X". If that's what you think about me, don't bother even responding. In reality I've left the academia for industry and am doing 10x better financially than any of my ex-colleagues - I benefit nothing from the effort I make in trying to communicate what is really going on here.
Something that stuck with me was an article[1] describing how certain fields of medicine had languished, whereas others had made dramatic strides forward during the same period. For example, psychology is basically 90% hogwash. Meanwhile, the study of the the brain's biochemistry and therapeutic medication-based remedies for many common brain dysfunctions have made huge strides forward in recent decades.
Back in the mid 20th century, the only treatment for most brain-related problems was "talk to a psychiatrist". This generally did nothing except help psychiatrists rack up billable hours.
When medications eliminated the "need" for one-on-one therapy sessions, how do you think it went, trying to convince psychiatrists that their entire lucrative field is a giant waste of time?
Yeah.
Precisely how you think it went.
Similarly, when I was at University around the late 1990s, the entire field of AI research revolved around only logic. As in, some person or a few people had decided that the path to general intelligence was to be via "fuzzy logic", or "predicate logic", or "probabilistic logic", or... well... some kind of logic at any rate. We had to learn LISP, Prolog, and Boolean algebra, and so on.
That entire path was a giant waste of time, but... none of it was wrong. Not one bit. They were correct, confidently making slow but steady progress, and they weren't even going in the wrong direction! They were advancing AI! Just... very slowly, and with no chance at achieving the modern miracles of AI such a text-to-image generation. (DALL*E, Imagen, Stable Diffusion, etc...)
Let's circle back to Sabine's criticism of theoretical physics.
They're the same.
They're confident that they're correct because they're not wrong!
Sabine doesn't argue that they're wrong. I also don't believe physicists are wrong, and I've even studied physics to a graduate level, agreeing with at least 99% of it.
What I believe is that theoretical physics specifically has gone down a parallel path that leads to a dead end.
The path leads in the right direction, and every step along it leads to forward progress.
The issue is that there are people that simply refuse to believe that maybe, just maybe, we're all stuck in a dead end.
Quantum Mechanics researchers especially love to point to a small number of successes such as the precision numerical calculations related to the anomalous magnetic dipole moment of the electron as proof that they're on the right path. This is cheerfully ignoring the minor detail that the equivalent calculation for the muon has a 3.5 standard deviation error when compared to reality. Oops. Just ignore that. We're on the right path, remember, because the step we took with the electron was forward!
This is the problem.
I remember my professors being so earnest about AI and logic, and how "one day", there will be intelligent robots programmed in Prolog.
I also remember my Quantum Mechanics lessons where the professor very earnestly told me that microscopic systems change magically only when you look at them, which is patent nonsense, but is repeated to this day, just like Freud's idiocy is still taught to psychiatrists decades after much of their profession has been largely superseded by therapeutic drugs.
[1] I wish I could dig it up, but I read it over a decade ago. The gist is pretty clear though, in that not all "sciences" are equal, and small branches even within the same larger field are often dramatically more effective and/or correct due to "cultural" reasons, or a better approach. The article listed many examples, but the criticism of certain areas of medicine and psychology were the most scathing. For a similar rant, see Richard Feynman's take on the topic: http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~ravenben/cargocult.html
The opposite of what you write is true. Physicists are eager to see where theory doesn't fit reality, that might even lead to a nobel price. Even statistical fluctuations are sometimes hyped as breakthrough experiments.
The point is that people point to the equivalent result for the electron as evidence that the existing theory is correct, when it gets only one correct out of the three leptons.
There is no guarantee that the "new" thing will be another step along the same path as the existing theory.
I very strongly suspect that we'll need to backtrack a bit, perhaps a lot, and then walk along another parallel path to get to that new thing.
It might look very similar, but the subtle differences can make all the difference in allowing forward progress.
I've also been pretty frustrated by Copenhagen interpretation orthodoxy, but decoherence and open quantum systems generally has made great strides as a subfield in recent times. People are thinking about it better than ever.
In science, laymen most often don't know what a result looks like.
But the layman's belief that a YouTube video is sufficient background to reject the work of scientists... that's on them. They should know that a video, or even several videos, is not enough. We should all be able to recognize Mount Stupid.
Which is why the other thing the videos never mention: you won't expect experimental results from any of the competing theories, either.
This isn't a serious scientific debate. It's a few scientists annoyed that they're getting less funding, and accusing the string theory people of exactly the same things they do.
There is a genuine scientific debate here, and a lot of real problems. None of which they make videos about.
Note in particular that "millions" is probably right, and it's pocket change compared to the LHC -- which is NOT a string theory experiment. Its energies are well within the standard model, which is the problem. There is no practical way for us to get outside that range. String theory persists because it's pencil and paper and grad students, and doesn't cost that much.
An argument could be made for shutting down the LHC and sending the money to soil science or lupus or something else more likely to produce results. But the string theory arguments being conducted via YouTube are abysmal science.
And the fact that we’ve gone from “the layman couldn’t possibly understand the science” to “it doesn’t cost that much any way” is telling. How about a good reason to keep doing this type of research at all?
What makes string theory particularly poor, in your opinion?
There are a very small handful of anomalies which aren't adequately explained by the standard model, but string theorists didn't base their models around resolving these questions. They sought a grand, unified, simple theory out of a philosophical (religious?) belief that one ought to exist.
And generally speaking we have good reason to believe the universe operates on a simplistic rule set that evolves in complex ways because finding a simple equation at the heart of complex interactions is pretty much the history of physics.
Well, Paul Dirac for one did predict the antimatter counterpart of the electron because of mathematical beauty, didn't he?
She is (was) a physics researcher, perhaps a mediocre one, most are. But saying she has no idea what she's talking about requires some justification.
Specifically, what do you disagree with her about?
Why would you say "was" - she's still a fellow at FIAS and lists herself as a researcher on her own website. Conversely, her only publication in the last decade with more than 100 citations was her popular science book aimed at non-physicists and most of the things before that were borderline hack stuff, basically going back to Milgrom's theory with very little content that would justify moving this research from fringe to mainstream [1]. She definitely hasn't established herself as an authority on foundations of quantum mechanics or string theory, which she has taken a liking to discredit. So the commenter above was not wrong.
[1] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=NaQZcyYAAAAJ&hl=en
If you were a research fellow in virology or immunology, and you had read and understood the relevant papers, then I would listen to you, yes. That doesn't mean I would take what you said as the final word.
How would you know that if I hadn't published papers on the relevant topics and only published in adjacent, non-mainstream topics?
And yes, the bar for string theory is high. Not every research fellow in theoretical physics would be qualified to comment here - quite the opposite actually. In the same way any honest theoretical plasma physicist will refuse to comment on quantum computing papers. Inside academia it is well known that you often can't even expect people to create qualified comments across neighbouring offices inside departments. Regardless, there are quite a few qualified people in this area. If someone with caliber like Susskind, Gross, 't Hooft, Witten or from the respected younger generation came out and said it's all a hoax, you can bet everyone would listen. And they have come out with specific critique, but you'll find it very different from the likes of Hossenfelder and it is usually not discussed in popsci literature. Noone in the field cares about people who haven't even shown they understand it, let alone contributed to it.
> How would you know that if I hadn't published papers on the relevant topics
No, that not the question. You don't get to assume that people are incompetent until they've presented incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. You're the one making ad hominem arguments, the burden of proof is on you.
Leaving aside the setting of ridiculously high bars for the moment, that level of evidence would be different depending on who is observing. A car mechanic is going to be able to spot clear evidence of incompetence in another car mechanic long before it’s apparent to a layperson observer.
What? Have you even read OP's article? A direct quote from the article has her saying this physics research is "religion masquerading as science under the guise of mathematics." If that's not insinuating a hoax I then don't know what is.
IMHO religions are just religions. As much as you can't scientifically prove the existence of god, you can't disprove it either. It's not necessarily a hoax.
Sure, it's not experimental physics, but as long as it's _bound by reality_ somehow, it's still science.
So the way a good physicist operates is to say "fine, I can't do the experiment, but let me see what is allowed by current experimental bounds". This is good. It's also an idea as old as science itself.
In contrast it's tremendously ironic that physics poopooers like Sabine and that other peter woit guy typically choose to work on special-relativity-violating theories, which are immediately outside of the bounds that the experiments we do have impose. Do you understand what I'm saying? This person is claiming "we can't directly probe a string therefore string theory is religion", but then she works on something which is worse than religion - something which we know is experimentally disproven. (I'm talking about the loop quantum gravities, and entropic gravities and so on and on - they're all inconsistent with one of the most toughroughly experimentally tested laws, special relativity). If they weren't so good at convincing the public that no one knows anything, their tragedy would be comic.
So it’s good science to color within the lines not try to redraw them through new experiments we CAN conduct.
I don’t know; sounds like sheer laziness and lack of true creativity if you can only play inside a decades old sandbox.
Along with the entitled tone and “I’m doing 10x better in industry than colleagues in academia” kind of feels like you’re doing it for bragging rights not science.
Not sure what you are referring to here. If it is her work on theories involving a minimal length scale: Heisenberg and Planck also hypothesized about minimal length scales. Hardly controversial even if difficult to combine with Lorenz invariance.
Experimental testability is important in physics. It doesn't mean anyone doing something not directly testable is a hack, but I think it's good people have been raising the issue more recently.
This reminds me of the power grid. Practically any news article or video is woefully ignorant and a LOT of studies that get put on here have a mountain of assumptions that render their conclusions as far less firm than the readers on here understand. There are some experts on HN in this area, but a lot of folks just blindly parroting stuff they don't understand.
... said Stadler to Waldorf.
Her main point to me, which she is quite good at repeating, is roughly that just because the maths works out, doesn't mean it's physically real. I think this is a very healthy caveat which is all too often neglected in popular science reporting.
"That's right!, and we're doing 10x times better up here in our box than you muppets down there on the stage!"
You can't know that, even if the math technically works. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't, it's really about what you choose to believe.
How do we know who's an expert here? Peer review is only as good as your peers. Genuine question.
It looks like Beyond Standard Model physics is becoming increasingly more abstract, increasingly less mathematically well-defined*, and not getting any closer to physically testable. So I don't know how to judge who's an expert.
* - What are the equations of M-Theory?
That's a fair question.
Let me give you a rule of thumb. I must emphasize you can't take it _too_ seriously. But it seems to hold quite well that in hard sciences, not just physics, looking from the inside, you notice that the ones who talk to the media are normally the bottom of the barrel. This makes a lot of sense. If your goal is to learn about the fundamental building blocks of the universe, writing blog posts the societal aspects of science doesn't help you with that. Real scientists spend their time doing science. There's very few exceptions to this. In fact right now I can think of a single person who's a world class researcher _and_ a prolific blogger; Terrence Tao, but he's a mathematician.
My point is, you can't judge who's the expert based on the quality of the science produced because you don't have the expertise for that. But believe you me, if someone spends a lot of time doing things other than research, they're probably not the best.
Right, sorry, I forgot that the only thing of importance that people have to contribute are Nobel prize winning papers. You know, lecturing, writing textbooks, writing standard scientific papers, peer reviews, all of these things aren't contributions. Obviously no-one should engage with the media unless they have won a Nobel and have decided they have no major papers left in them. In fact at that point, if they were real scientists, they'd just realise their time was up and walk off to perish on the tundra like the elderly inuits used to so they don't take up any more precious resources from the real scientists.
There is a commonality in your argument, at least from where I'm standing, with the logic of the 'proper binmen' people or the ascetics -- only those who suffer in silence away from society are truly the 'holy physicists'.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/nov/15/who-remembers-p...
It's ironic that you express the following sentiment:
> If your goal is to learn about the fundamental building blocks of the universe, writing blog posts the societal aspects of science doesn't help you with that. Real scientists spend their time doing science. There's very few exceptions to this. In fact right now I can think of a single person who's a world class researcher _and_ a prolific blogger;
when, just yesterday, the highest ranked post on the site was this:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33750825
about this essay:
> My point is, you can't judge who's the expert based on the quality of the science produced because you don't have the expertise for that.
But you do have the expertise / knowledge / chuzpah to say that Mr Tao is a world class researcher? Sorta contradicktory, no?
However, reviewing Sabine's cosmology papers to assess her arguments that theory research is poorly incentivised would be nonsensical anyway, so why even bother?
(To make my position clear, I actually don't agree with Sabine's angle that theory research is overvalued, but I do agree it focuses weirdly on some topics. I do read contemporary papers outside of what's presented via pop sci. But that should not be the content of your response if you are as credentialed as you say)
I’ll take him and Sabine, and my 24 yo masters in elastic structures, over your entitled screed any day.
I left physics in 2008 in part because I was in the same boat as you and had gotten disillusioned with both string theory and particle physics. Now I kinda wish I had stuck it out and focused on more practical, less hyped-up areas.