6. Socrates on the Forgetfulness That Comes with Writing (newlearningonline.com) 33 points by indy 1 hour ago | hide | 5 comments
7. Writing by hand is still the best way to retain information (stackoverflow.blog) 329 points by TangerineDream 7 hours ago | hide | 189 comments
Socrates was about the living of philosophy, not merely writing or reading it.
Memorization was an important technology of the time, and like most technologies it was used (and abused) to analogize and conceptualize abstract processes and phenomena, often to the point of equivocation. Failing to appreciate the role that memorization played back then is like failing to appreciate, for example, how the Internet and social media shape our understanding and debate of culture and politics in the early 21st century; the debates can all seem very esoteric, random, and confusing unless and until you have the historical anchor to contextualize things. Then much of the logic, presumptions, and emphases become easier to understand and translate into more familiar terms; banal even.
I'm reminded of this admonition against technological equivocation from a mathematics professor, E.C. Zeeman, discussing the role astronomy as reflected in the Antikythera Mechanism had in shaping ancient thought on the nature of the world:
> I would like to conclude by telling a cautionary tale. Let us try and place the Antikythera Mechanism within the global context of ancient Greek thought. Firstly came the astronomers observing the motions of the heavenly bodies and collecting data. Secondly came the mathematicians inventing mathematical notation to describe the motions and fit the data. Thirdly came the technicians making mechanical models to simulate those mathematical constructions, like the Antikythera Mechanism. Fourthly came generations of students who learned their astronomy from these machines. Fifthly came scientists whose imagination had been so blinkered by generations of such learning that they actually believed that this was how the heavens worked. Sixthly came the authorities who insisted upon the received dogma. And so the human race was fooled into accepting the Ptolemaic system for a thousand years.
> Today we are in danger of making the same mistake over computers. Our present generation is able to view them with an appropriate skepticism when necessary. But our children's children may be brought up within a society dominated by computers, that they may actually believe this is how our brains work. We do not want the human race to be fooled again for another thousand years.
http://zakuski.utsa.edu/~gokhman/ecz/gears_from_the_greeks.p...
I actually heard of this socrates piece when researching the art of memory. was really good timing because that is when that article about google making us dumb came out. Now i look back and laugh.
Is this the same book by Frances Yates mentioned by the GP? If so, can you point me to the relevant chapter? I just downloaded the book.
I believe we should be humbled by how deep the "elite" of some older civilizations may have understood "themselves" and "the human condition". We need to see through all that fossilized blinkered strata, and not just throw it all away.
We are so proud of our "information machines" and "neurocognitive psychology" advances. Simple things like "memory" still completely elude us today.
You will still have a "tunnel vision" (="fooled again for another thousand years") even if your tunnel (=technology) is grandiose and your vision is precise (=science).
Then he would have freaked out over smart phones. I've first hand seen what happens to e.g. sense of direction once use of the navigator-assist becomes habitual. Some auxiliary mental muscle atrophies in the brain.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_ancient_athens...
Also, Athens (Piraeus) was a major port and therefore had to have a nontrivial share of strangers roaming the streets.
A navigator of some sort means that I can make up for this shortcoming and that I can explore. It isn't perfect, but much better than my brain does on its own.
However, I still have to use mnemonics to remember which side is port vs starboard (my mnemonic for this is that when facing the bow, aka forwards, port is on the left, because they both have four letters). I imagine this is what you experience when you say you have to think about right vs left, is that pretty close?
Fun little anecdote, my cousin had “right” and “left” tattooed on their wrists because they will forget otherwise. At first I found that unbelievable, but I’ve come to realize how different people can be over the years.
If I pay attention, I can feel my heartbeat. I know that is my left side.
Presumably because the naval plans for the Battle of Aegospotami were written down instead of memorized.
Socrates opponents then kicked Sparta out, suffering and risking torture and death. And they then blamed Socrates teachings for what transpired. (Yes, the court that sentenced him was miscarriage of justice.)
People always jump to simplistic conclusions and forget all the nuances involved.
As another example, The Art of Memorization was highly developed in Ancient India in order to preserve and transmit the vast corpus of "Hindu Literature" consisting of Vedas/Puranas/Kavyas/etc. It is quite fascinating to see how important Memorization has been to Human development and progress across centuries.
Modern Science has now shown us that Memorization has distinct positive effects on the Brain too.
1) Extensive long-term verbal memory training is associated with brain plasticity : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8102627/
2) A Neuroscientist Explores the "Sanskrit Effect" : https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-neurosci...
3) Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers : https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.070039597
4) Cache Cab: Taxi Drivers' Brains Grow to Navigate London's Streets : https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memor...
That looks like a classic Matthew 7:3 - Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
I think that makes this part of your reply an example of exactly what it’s criticizing.
It was quite clear from the GP's comment that no time has been spent on thinking through nuances and trying to reconcile the apparent contradiction. It was posted as a "gotcha" which added nothing of value.
So my criticism was aimed at that in particular and as a caution to others in general. Hence the use of the word "People" as a rhetorical device.
* Avadhanam : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avadhanam
* The Art of Avadhana : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDFSFJSt984
* Performance : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYFg6Sinpks
Socrates pupils listened and discussed his ideas with him directly and very in-depth.
Instead of him writing down statements to be misinterpreted, he instilled his philosophy into many people through direct conversation.
By talking with the person directly you're able to understand that reasoning much better vs interpretation.
I find Socrates a very fascinating character and Plato's dialogs very entertaining to read. He is such an expert troll (no wonder they sentenced him to death).
The first article is saying that A < B and Socrates is saying that B < C - and both of them use similar argumentation (essentially, that taking shortcuts to do it faster is counterproductive to proper understanding), there's no contradiction and no counterpoint.
It may seem coincidence but I came to understand that it's just the community digesting and reacting to the original idea very quickly