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Comment by bsimpson | Hacker News Reader

I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty.

That said, I don't understand education+early career visas. "Come get an education at one of our universities, and then take your utility elsewhere!" If we're gonna train people, we should have onramps to employment so our economy can benefit too.

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You literally have no idea about the immigration policies in other countries. Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan). Many countries will force you to give up your citizenship if you want to get a new citizenship. The US and Canada have the most lenient and generous citizenship policies in the world.

I personally think we should only confer citizenship on people who are in the country legally. There's too many tourist vacationers that come here to give birth to their child, incur hospital fees that they won't pay, and then fly back home. The fact it takes so long for actual good immigrants is terrible policy. My close friend from India who was making over $1 million per year at FAANG has been waiting over a decade for his Green Card. The system is a mess. He is also a proponent of very strong immigration rules because he sees how the rules are being bent and it's utterly unfair for those who follow the rules.

Japan definitely does allow naturalization for non-Japanese, source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law

Germany allows too since I have seen many, many first generation immigrants become German citizens.

Did you bother to read the article that you posted?

"Foreigners over the age of 18 (or age 20 prior to April 1, 2022) may become Japanese citizens by naturalization after residing in the country for at least five years, renouncing any previous nationalities, and proving self-sufficiency through their occupation or existing financial assets."

You have to renounce previous nationalities, whereas the reverse the United States is much more generous towards the possibility of dual citizenship.

I did, did you bother to read that the OP I responded to posted "Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan)"?

I was pointing out that Japan does let people become citizens after they've lived there for a period of time, the OP was suggesting the complete opposite. Renouncing previous nationalities is not the same as Japan not allowing people to become citizens, no matter how long they have lived there.

Japanese also have to renounce other nationalities. So it's not only about immigrants but also all nationals.

"You literally have no idea about the immigration policies in other countries"

It's ironic that you say that, but are making claims that just aren't correct.

"The US and Canada have the most lenient and generous citizenship policies in the world."

This is widely agreed to be false. I'll refer to the following sites:

https://flagtheory.com/ja/easiest-countries-to-become-a-citi...

https://getgoldenvisa.com/easiest-countries-to-get-citizensh...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/easiest-c...

You'll notice there are many countries with 2 or 3 year citizenship tracks as the default, while the US's is 5 years, and requires significantly more difficulty.

The US isn't anywhere near the top of any of those lists.

The US policy is certainly better than a lot of countries, but that doesn't make it "most generous in the world", just not "least generous".

But we aren't talking about years, are we? We are talking about total numbers of immigrants allowed. What is the USA's ranking in total legal immigration?

If he makes $1m/year why doesn't he sponsor himself for an investor green card? It's a no-brainer.

I work in HFT, and have seen lots of people from India, China, who are traders and quants, do just that. If they're good, they get big bonuses, save them for a few years and apply for an EB-5. With devs it's a longer path to get there, but I will probably be trying that in a few years if I can, till then I can move to Canada on my Canadian residency permit.

> You literally have no idea about the immigration policies in other countries.

That's a big accusation.

I'm entitled to feel embarrassed about the problems with our system, regardless of if some other country does a better or worse job than we do.

> There's too many tourist vacationers that come here to give birth to their child, incur hospital fees that they won't pay, and then fly back home.

[citation needed]

>"I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty."

The United States has some of the most generous and charitable immigration policies of all countries on Earth. The problem is that the sheer number of people trying to immigrate means that it appears cruel for turning so many people down. Particularly when people don't look into just how restrictive other developed nations are with their own policies.

This is correct. Most European countries have much more stringent immigration policies. Switzerland is a great example, where the process is longer and also they checks to see whether an applicant has indeed assimilated well, are a lot better.

Western nations need to adopt more stringent immigration policies and also be much more rigorous in testing how well the applicants have assimilated. Most of the current 1st gen. immigrants hardly make any effort to assimilate.

Modern US culture holds that assimilation is an evil to be avoided. The old metaphor of the "melting pot" has been tossed out in favor of a "salad bowl". Assimilation is the opposite of diversity, and since diversity is good, assimilation is bad.

This attitude is going about as well as you'd expect.

Europe is seeing the "benefits" of this policy, Canada will soon be next. The "geniuses" supporting all this do not realize is that this is how you destroy the culture that your ancestors built, screw up social harmony among different groups, and how your fuel the rise of people joining alt-right movements.

No it doesn't. Simply asserting this statement does not make it so. Modern US culture is very much anti undocumented immigration, but that is something completely different. No one is pushing to cut the 1 million green cards issues a year, and that would be happening is what you claim was even remotely true.

You're going to have to help me out - I don't see any connection between my comment and your response.

Culture may be opposed to it, but Federal policy is very much in favor of undocumented immigration.

> Most European countries have much more stringent immigration policies

Depends on your definition of stringent. You picked the one outlier - Switzerland - where apparently your canton gets to vote on whether you become a citizen. Or something crazy like that, idk.

Most European nations I'm familiar with let you become a permanent resident after residing legally for a certain number of years, and passing a language test. Then citizenship after some more years and more tests.

Is the US very different from that? Unless you're born in India or China...in which case, you might have an easier time in Europe.

> The United States has some of the most generous and charitable immigration policies of all countries on Earth.

Depends on who is immigrating, doesn't it? The Diversity Visa Lottery is outstanding, true. However, I consider Germany's Blue Card superior to H-1B: you can get a visa in a few weeks once you have a contract and a BS degree. For H-1B, not only you have lots of paperwork and processing time, you also have to win the spring quota lottery. Unless you work for a university, they have separate quota.

> I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty.

That's the effect of being the single most desirable target for immigrants. If US immigration laws were any more lenient, it would be the most populous country on Earth already, way ahead of India and China.

> xenophobia and cruelty

this blames the reader of the comment indirectly, and calls to gather and act now to remedy these obvious and ugly moral traits

yet, most readers (like me) have had nothing to do with setting the rules for this system, nor implementing them. In addition, it is large companies that routinely exercise the actual restrictions.. and yes I have seen it directly.

Overall, this comment to flay and riddle the reader with guilt over this issue, is corrosive to unity.. and comes off as whiny and naive

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How does me, an American, being embarrassed that it's hard for my friends from other countries to visit and/or live here make an abstract reader feel guilty?

Because it’s not your fault, so feeling guilty or embarrassed about it is dumb.

Foreigners pay tons of money for the privilege of being at an American university, even state schools. Its really no comparison to in-state tuition. Its very good business for the universities. After that, the best find a way to remain in the country anyway, the rest are sent back through the ruthless H1B program.

Most people will transition from F-1 student visa OPT (Optional Practical Training) which has a multi-year STEM extension to H1B. Essentially you have 3 chances to get a H1B if you can find an employer willing to go through the process while you are already legally in the country.

I have never met any current or former H1B holder who didn't enter the program through this route.

I am a naturalized citizen who also followed this path.

The limit laws were put in place for the opposite reason of xenophobia and cruelty. It was to give immigrants from ALL countries a chance, and to provide a diverse group of new Americans. There is not going to ever be unlimited immigration, so knowing that, it is only fair to divide green cards among countries. Xenophobia would be if the USA only gave visas to Western Europeans and Australia/Canada. I remember in the 80s it was pretty common to find 'undocumented' Canadians and Irish. Your argument wouldn't stand up then as xenophobic USA not wanting those foreign Canadians and Irish, and it doesn't hold up now. The USA is has some of the largest legal immigration rates in the world.

It brings money, and spreads influence. Solves a different type of problem.

Universities like the cheap foreign research labor. Foreign students depress wages for American ones. Americans opt out and choose a different career.

Corruption all the way down, friends.

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