Comment by idan | Hacker News Reader

Comment by idan | Hacker News Reader

An eloquent description which captures the essence of one possible reaction. Mine was different (I live in Israel, had a similar encounter) but the core experience is similar.

It seems cliche, but there is a fundamental truth to the fact that most westerners are simply unaware of what the "I fear for my bodily integrity" sensation is and does to your life. OP's newly-discovered appreciation of how crowded buses present a potential security threat is a great example. It isn't that you suddenly see your life in a whole new light, it's that you regard various mundane things with a new, orthogonal parameter: is this situation more likely to result in harm to me?

Like all things, eventually you become inured and looking at a situation from a security perspective becomes a routine thought passing through your head along with "shit, I forgot to pay the gas bill." Without getting into Israel/Palestine, this is a slice of what living in Israeli society is roughly like.

I've spent a considerable amount of time in Iraq in the US military; it's very tough to explain to people how much energy I now spend assessing threats presented by very mundane acts/situations. It's exhausting. I constantly have to remind myself that I'm not in danger. So tired of it. I feel sometimes that if I were still in a combat zone or a constantly embattled place like Israel that energy wouldn't be expended for nought.

Are you implying that somehow the vacuity of this acquired reflex in a reasonably safe place and its associated tiredness makes you wish to go to a dangerous place, if only to make that reflex have a purpose, a meaning?

Yeah something like that

It does wear off after a few years; at least it did for me. Now I can hear a car backfire without dropping to the ground (yes I did this once and felt pretty foolish). But I still freeze for a moment when I hear a distant firework or other load bang, and my mind immediately tries to identify the "weapon" sound signature. But I still feel uncomfortable in large crowds, and always scan for an easy exit.

I'm no expert, but both roquetman's and mattdeboard's stories sound like they might be Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (symptoms include "Having an exaggerated response to things that startle you", and "Feeling more aware (hypervigilance)") [0], for which treatment exists that's apparently effective at least for some people. Continuing the recent suicide-prevention theme on HN, "Going through a trauma may increase a person's suicide risk. Studies also show that suicide risk is higher in persons with PTSD." [1] So please, if people find themselves having symptoms like this, consider getting help.

[0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001923/ [1] http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/ptsd-suicide.asp

Indeed, but not every one of the reactions described idan, mattdeboard, or roqetman is attributable to a disorder. For example, freezing and trying to analyze the sound whenever an explosive noise occurs (or even ducking for cover) is not necessarily a pathological reaction - it could simply be a learned and throughly ingrained response. The patterns you learn in situations where your life depends on a trained behavior tend to be imprinted very deeply.

There are a couple of other things that need to go wrong until the diagnosis of PTSD is applicable. Sadly, this is not exactly made easier by the fact that people tend to have vastly different reactions and symptoms.

Yes; I do not believe I have combat-related PTSD. However I do believe that an early adulthood -- 18 to 31 -- spent in the Marine Corps does deeply ingrain certain modes of thought. When those modes are cemented by lengthy combat tours they can be hard to shake.

I think for me personally it is a highly anticipatory, self-protective mode. I am constantly assessing and "war gaming" where scenarios/situations might veer. This includes my daily commute, shopping trips and unfortunately romantic relationships.

Eh it's been 4 years for me now.

I was taught something really cool by a police friend of mine, and that is the traffic light of awareness. There is green, orange/yellow and red.

What you are describing is living above "red". It doesn't matter where you are, what you are doing or who you are with you are constantly looking at peoples hands, faces, posture, and constantly assessing threats. Many people in law enforcement and military have the same experience as you.

The way I have heard it explained is as such:

green = this is where you feel most safe, this would be when you are home in bed, or when you are back in your old childhood room at your parents house.

orange = You are slightly alert, this can be your condition while driving, or walking on the street. You are aware of your surroundings, but you feel comfortable and at ease.

red = You are highly alert, you are scanning every single person, you are scanning all situations, you are watching for unexpected movement, you are watching facial expressions and body language, you are looking for exits, you know what locations would be safe and what locations wouldn't be safe. Some people have said they experienced a sort of tunnel vision in that you don't nothing anything but potential threats.

People that spend a long time in the red zone can have significant issues with PTSD, it can put you on edge, make it difficult to function in society. The reason why law enforcement feels like such an outsider compared to the general citizen is partly due to constantly being in the red. When they are around other police officers they can let their guard drop a little and feel less stressed.

I hope you soon start feeling like you don't have to do what you are doing. I've heard from friends that were in the military that for them it went away after a year or two of being out, but it has been difficult for them, you forever see all situations and people in a completely different light. Best of luck to you.

Note: I personally spend a lot of time in orange and red modes, part of this may be my life long martial arts training as well as having had attempted muggings. Even while at home I never leave orange, I have a hard time finding a place where I feel completely at ease/in the green.

This is a great explanation and very apt. I'm generally at a red on this scale. I don't call that PTSD, btw, though a lot of laymen might. I just think it comes from the understanding that bad stuff happens regardless of how prepared you are, but you can minimize the damage if you're ready to react.

I don't know you and haven't seen anything like combat so sorry if this is presumptuous, but have you considered psychotherapy? A good therapist could teach you strategies to control your level of anxiety/stress/alertness whatever you want to call it. Doesn't mean you're crazy and there's no shame in it. thanks for our service.

Some cultures (US, in my personal experience) spend quite a bit of time convincing themselves that terrible things can't happen to them. For instance, I could be hit by a bus tomorrow in a freak accident and suffer a more painful end than a soldier in Iraq. That's not to say that Iraq isn't much more dangerous, but danger exists for everyone.

I feel for the soldier you're replying to because he is at odds with society in this regard. However, he's not at odds with reality because bad shit really does happen and I admire his not being so quick to label it some kind of illness.

Accepting that random dangers outside of our control exist is actually entirely different than the hypervigilance. Your bus example: Do you go into a panic at the sight of a bus? Do you check that every bus you see comes to a complete stop & doesn't have faulty brakes? Do you wait for buses to leave the area before you proceed?

With hypervigilance you are identifying threats that do not likely exist given the current context of the situation. Classic post-war examples are where someone needs to check their corners before exiting an aisle of a grocery store or fears slowing down at an intersection because it leaves them vulnerable, even though they are in their hometown. It can interfere greatly with someone's quality of life.

But you see what I'm saying? "quality of life" is an illusion because danger exists in those situations. my point is not hypervigilance, as you say. my point is... enjoy your life because it could be very, very short

The poster you were responding to sounded like he may be dealing with hypervigilance, which is why I brought it up. Hypervigilance is one facet of PTSD. PTSD should not be poo poo'd. People with PTSD cannot just say "oh life's short, I should enjoy it" & then get on with their lives.

The poster didn't sound like he's in such bad shape and doesn't deserve to be labeled as diseased. If he decides he needs that, sure, it should be taken dead seriously. He may not. Just let the man live his life and decide what he can or cannot say

There are bad things which can happen all the time. I don't think being "extra vigilant", as long as it doesn't cross over into clinical hypervigilance, is really that wrong. Driving, in particular, is incredibly dangerous, and treating really bad drivers like they might be VBIEDs seems to be consistent with safety.

I have this same thing, but from playing too many video games. Constantly looking for sniper positions, cover, and I always have this feeling I want to walk sideways (strafe) around corners.

Yes, but this is the crux of his reaction:

There was something about the idea that I might have died in a grey train full of grey commuters, having not truly lived, that I could not stand.

I can't even imagine what it must be like living in a place where this threat is constant and tangibly real...

I wouldn't really describe it as a "constant and tangibly real" fear. Most Israelis will never see a terror attack in their lives. I can say that I spent the 25 years of my life in Israel without seeing anything like a terror attack, or gunshots or anything.

It's just a bunch of hype.

> I can say that I spent the 25 years of my life in Israel without seeing anything like a terror attack, or gunshots or anything.

...but how? Did you never spend significant time in Jerusalem (before they finished the separation wall)? I only spent a total of a few months in Jerusalem and saw one suicide bombing and was a few blocks from a shooting. Have you never been to the west bank? One of the two times I went to Hebron I saw soldiers shooting at...who knows? But they were shooting. If you live near the northern border or near Gaza you must have been exposed to rocket attacks at some point. The only way I can imagine you don't encounter violence over 25 years is if you live in a safe area and don't venture out much. Still, you must have friends or family who are exposed to violence. I find it incredible that you think it's just 'hype'.

Fellow Israeli here.

I wouldn't call it "a bunch of hype," but I agree that most of us don't live in fear. I object to the word "hype", as those that have experienced terror attacks don't forget them. The fear isn't exaggerated, but the frequency is.

Wanted to clarify.

Israel is a very safe place on the whole. You are far more likely to die here as a result of the horrifically bad drivers than of any other cause. Day-to-day, it is not "walking around on alert" as various (ex?)military members have related above.

What exists is a higher level of awareness, certainly for those who have ever been in close proximity to some… event—but also for society at large. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but I don't think there are bored underpaid security guards at the entrance to every mall with handheld metal detectors and an "open your bag, sir." this kind of casually intrusive security is simply unknown in the US outside of airports, at least until the DHS collectively lose their shit over a plot to bomb a mall using chewing gum, bleach, and a tweezers.

So yes, there is hype, particularly if your information is gleaned secondhand from the media; they only show pictures of things here when they're on fire. That doesn't conflict with my (personal, biased) experience that society here has a deeply-ingrained sense of "be on the lookout." I certainly felt it in Tel Aviv during the wave of bombings around 2000/2001 and intifada II, and I saw firsthand how America tried to come to grips with this unfamiliar sensation in New York during 9/11.

I don't want to bring politics into this discussion, but as a Palestinian American, I certainly experienced the effects of Israeli paranoia during my visit around the second Intifada. IDF checkpoint interrogations became standard practice and inconvenience and intimidation became a normality. Thankfully, things have improved since that time period, but it's certainly a bleak reminder of the consequences of security. My hope is peace can eventually find it's way through, and both the Israelis and Palestinians can continue negotiations and finally live together in a civil humane society without constant fear and intimidation, one equal to all.

Plus fucking one.

I had a coworker fly from Baghdad, Iraq to downtown London on 7-5-05. He seemed kind of pissed about the whole thing (although I don't think he was on any of the vehicles).

I almost went to Thailand just before their little redshirt coup thing on vacation from Iraq, too. Fortunately I couldn't get a flight, so I watched it on TV instead a few days later.

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