Microsoft is turning Windows 11's Start Menu into an ad delivery system
ghacks.net
ghacks.net
I don't want edge to open a bing search for some local app I was trying to launch because the internet search results came back before the local ones...
iOS 36%
Mac 23%
Android 20%
Windows 17%
Linux 4%
I really shouldn't be surprised though. Mac hardware is topnotch and equivalent quality Windows laptops - if you can find one - cost hundreds of dollars more and run slower. As a developer, the only reason to use Windows today is if you need Visual Studio for .NET development.
I use Windows 11 at work. I have Windows 10 on my personal laptop and see no reason whatsoever to upgrade to Windows 11. All Microsoft seems to be doing is, bump up Windows version number whenever Apple bumps up MacOS version number, and make some minor changes (even if it makes the product worse) to justify the new version number.
Spot on. I'm surprised I haven't seen this talked about more. First Microsoft skipped 9 so that they could be at the same number as Apple (X/10), called it the "last version of Windows ever" (probably because, at the time, Mac OS X was seen as the last "version" of Mac OS, and would just be dot releases until the end of time). When Apple finally bumped up from X to 11, you could almost feel Microsoft go "B-b-but 11 is one more than 10! We can't let Apple have the higher number!" And in the same breath they: Apple-ified their window corners and (some of their) icons, nerfed the Start menu, showed a complete misunderstanding of the difference between a dock and taskbar by trying their damndest to turn the latter into the former, and around the same time even offered a Spotlight-esque file search in the form of PowerToys (no complaints about PowerToys, though, it's great).
Everything I listed there paints a clear picture of Microsoft having zero vision for Windows (that's nothing new, I suppose) and simply following Apple's lead, but doing it worse.
It's really unfortunate, because, while Windows is certainly my least favorite OS, I do appreciate it for what it is and want to see it succeed. Windows 10's design language had finally matured -- it sucks to see them all but throw in the towel on ever having a clear, singular vision for Windows.
Microsoft just released a developer preview for audio sinking. They're advertising a feature to play audio from a Bluetooth device through your PC. Everyone else has had this feature pretty much the entire time. Windows is the only one that didn't have this feature. Windows 7 had it, though.
The driver implementation is much worse than it's ever been, and the built in UI is barely functional. It's got the absolute bare minimum to make it work and nothing else.
The state of Bluetooth on Windows today is frankly an embarrassment. It's a significant regression from windows 7, and it's put them way behind Linux and Mac.
Worst of all it's been like this for years and Microsoft hasn't done anything.
I'm a developer, and I've been fighting Bluetooth for the last three weeks. Windows updated the Bluetooth stack the other day, and some slight behavior change broke our software overnight. It's been frustrating to say the least.
And instead I am docking my M2 MacBook Air to the 4K monitor to do 90% of my programming... I only turn the desktop on when I need to check or compile something on windows.
Though with windows going the way it is I'm probably going to use it only for my gaming rig, and do development on a laptop like Framework running a linux distro
Unfortunately because the HN crowd never uses Windows they don't know you can do that and think we're all forced to play Candy crush on boot up or something. Anyone with a modicum of computer skills knows how to remove the ads and other annoying shit.
Sorta. Not that I use Windows much but from comments here on HN I inferred that the first windows subsystem for linux was decent ish. But then they launched WSL 2 that runs a VM behind the scenes with Linux in it and that limits what you can do with the rest of the OS.
Someone with actual experience please correct me if i'm wrong...
Personally, using a Mac or Windows device is a sign that I'll be using VMs for development anyways. With WSL, that VM is tightly integrated with my host system - on MacOS it's a window into a different computer. Nowadays I'd prefer to avoid both OSes wherever possible, but I'd probably err on the side of using Windows for development simply because you can install Ubuntu with one click.
I used to run Ubuntu for work (dell xps) but the hardware quality was infuriating. My model literally came apart (hinge detached).
I'd much rather spend the hour on dev env than spend a week without a laptop because of poor quality control
Brew and macports have to basically start the world from scratch again on a mac to get something resembling a good work environment, and it's STILL terrible. Every single time my work laptop updates anything, I basically have to rebuild those environments again because Xcode overwrites anything I may have configured back to defaults, defaults which were deprecated and non-viable for a secure product like a decade ago. I run into issues with the included version of SSL like twice a month, all because apple refuses to do the leg work to manage the licensing for more modern versions.
Meanwhile in windows world, I can download a nearly full version of ubuntu with one click, run it as if it lives on it's own box, and yet still use tools that jump the layer between windows and linux to make it seem like it's not even there. It's pretty powerful. In some ways, the single best linux installation is the one you get on windows. It's so seamless I use powershell, CMD, and the linux shell interchangeably on my computer.
I recommend giving it a whirl if you're at your wit's end with Mac packaging: https://nixos.org/download.html#nix-install-macos
* USB access is more difficult than just plugging something in.
* Debugging tools like perf, RR, etc were either unsupported because they needed hardware counters or required custom builds (no system headers in apt to help either).
* The VM takes a lot of disk space.
The rest of the experience was fairly smooth. WSL2 can access the entire filesystem through /mnt/<drive letter>/. Windows -> WSL is a bit janky, but it works. GPU access is supported. Network access works. You can use a remote X session to get GUIs working, though you need to be comfortable with linux. Unfortunately having DISPLAY set caused pip to hang for long periods due to [1], but apparently that's been resolved.
All in all, it mostly replaced my windows usage by the end. It's also a great workaround for legacy IT environments where the system is configured with Windows and only Windows.
Unfortunately, Windows Windows is just the worst of the major OSes today. Windows still has the most market share and the most support, and there are still things it does better than Linux. But Linux and Mac are still better options in most cases.
Linux is not the draw it was in the Windows Vista/8 eras but still a big draw.
I guess the Mac laptop draw is bigger at the moment.
But I can not imagine running my home computer on a closed OS.
The fact is UNIX based also helps a lot of the development process. Microsoft added WSL which helped but doesn't beat having the actual thing.
Finally, the M1 chips are pretty damn good.
Now try running 32-bit software :)
What do you mean by developer?
Lots of embedded systems and industrial automation development is Windows-only, as a random example. Not everything is webdev or mobile. Lots of vertical markets have development environments which are essentially Windows-only.
People who love Windows are still going to use, no matter how anti-consumer it becomes. The never ending battle Windows users are willing to go through, against their own OS each day, to make the UX less painful is amusing to say the least.
First they put spyware, then bloatware, then adware, then they disabled local account, now they're even trying to make sure your machines can't run Linux properly.
What's next? Subscription to use your own computer?
Windows is not going to change. Windows' users are not going to change. It's only going to get worse so I think even discussing why Windows is introducing all these horrible 'features' is almost pointless because we do this ritual almost every month.
I do not know one single person who loves windows, but plenty of people who use it, including me, because a lot of software is windows only.
I know I was a fan, until a few years ago and a few other friends followed Windows news too so I can definitely say there are people who love Windows but it's hard to see the greener side because the internet is full of wrong and outdated opinions about Linux sadly.
I've considered going back for certain programs, but thinking about windows now gives me the same sort of mental hesitation that I get from gas stations with those horrible video ads. It's not a dealbreaker per se, but I would go far out of my way to avoid it.
Sure there are compromises I have to make, but being Free, unmonitored, not treated like a resource to be extracted, and feeling like my computer is mine is worth more than the any of the issues I encounter.
If you don't like having ads forced on you, then use an OS vendor that agrees with you. Thankfully, there's lots of OSes (i.e., Linux distros) that don't have any ads in them, which you can download and use for free, so this isn't really a problem.
In other words: Don't like it? Don't use it.
> especially when so many people are perfectly happy to keep buying and using Windows OS?
Honestly, this is because a lot of people that would care are unaware that this is happening. It's impossible to stay on top on everything in your life but that doesn't make it ok to treat those people poorly.
The main issue is that for many, there isn't a choice since you can't go to most stores and buy a linux powered machine. You have to have special knowledge in order to even install it.
Perhaps it's horribly ironic that the only OSes that don't advertise to you are the ones you can use Freely.
And here I was, giving people the benefit of the doubt...
Times changed and computers stopped being cool.
- "Try the new Safari!" advertisement spam
- Settings menu advertises iCloud
- Apple Music activates every time you put on your headphones, treating you to a pop-up ad
- App Store searches always return promoted content before actual results
There are supposedly others in the News/Stock apps but I avoid Apple's first-party clients wherever possible.
A lot of these blog posts (like many comments in this thread sadly) are low effort hate/FUD for farming clickbait/karma rather than objective analysis.
It took the interns at Microsoft, what, nearly 10 years to fix the whole search function fiasco? Not impressive, and a working search function can not be considered a feature.
> Previously if you wanted to go into the windows registry editor, you had to know the right incantation, but now, all you have to do is hit the Windows/Meta key and type 'reg'
The same search, but on Windows 10 with Open Shell [0]: https://i.imgur.com/YyxIzcO.png
And in my opinion, the start menu is much better looking: https://i.imgur.com/NeXwFlM.png
> it even shows you power-user stuff really intuitively.
Examples?
In my circles I can't think of a single developer and/or power-user that use, or plan on using Windows 11 (except in a virtual machine for quick compatibility-testing). We're all on micropatched W7's or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC - otherwise Linux. W11 has sort of become one of the topics we joke about during lunch.
Power-users do not care about a cool and stylish UI, new icons or a simple working search function.
> A lot of these blog posts (like many comments in this thread sadly) are low effort hate/FUD for farming clickbait/karma rather than objective analysis.
ghacks has been covering Windows for many years. It's also not clickbait and MS are turning the operating system into an ad platform, unfortunately.
Look, I wasn't tryin to start a Windows 7 vs 10 vs 11 vs MacOS vs Linux holy war, I was just pointing out that contrary to the article, I have yet to see any ads in the Windows 11 start menu, and the start menu search function works flawlessly on Windows 11 for me, contrary to what this shallow blog article which had no substance backed by tests and evidence.
>It took the interns at Microsoft, what, nearly 10 years to fix the whole search function fiasco? Not impressive, and a working search function can not be considered a feature.
As long as it works flawlessly for me in the present day, what difference does the past 10 years make for me? Microsoft devs aren't paid by my wages and I always judge the current version of any tech product, not some relics form the past. Linux also works great now for gaming, so who cares it didn't work 10 years ago?
>Power-users do not care about a cool and stylish UI, new icons or a simple working search function.
Average Joe users who user their PC for entertainment and work, with a life outside of micropatching their OS, do care about things being simple and working out of the box, and that's the target audience for such an OS. Powerusers are a special breed no company targets because they can never be pleased so it's never profitable. They have GNU/Linux for that.
We'll see. If I'm not mistaken the author has written books on Windows even. Why would he lie about something so stupid? ghacks is not a blog it's a tech news site and pretty well known. Perhaps you don't like it because of the sites critical view regarding Windows?
> Average Joe users who user their PC for entertainment and work
Don't bring up average Joe - we're talking about power-users, you were the one who brought up 'power-user stuff' and that's what I quoted you on. I wanted to share the perspective of someone who do not share your praise and excitement for W11. Many seem to not share your experience that is an ad free, lovely OS.
Because many just love to shit on it without having used it lately, because hating everything Microsoft is a timeless trend. Just like hating Nickelback and Internet Explorer. You must hate them because the internet said so, otherwise you get downvoted, to teach you to fall in line with the official party line.
People would also hate Edge despite benchmarks showing its latest iterations, even before the transition to chromium, as being one of the fastest and most performat browsers out there. If Microsoft would cure cancer tomorrow, people would still hate them just because.
Therefore the opinion of various heavily biased internet swarm minds is largely irelevant and should be taken with a glorious boulder of salt.
Don't get me wrong, I hate on Microsoft enough when they deserve it, but, as a long time Windows and Linux user, I can't really fault W11 as an OS as it's the best windows so far by a long shot IMHO.
I also hated W11 when I installed it a year ago, but since then all updates brough only improvements. I never though I'd say this but it's now a much better alternative to windows 10 for both coding and entertainment, it has put me off from switching to Linux fully, that, and Fedora and OpenSUSE deciding to remove VA-API hardware acceleration for AMD users.
To be frank with you, MS deserves all the criticism and I truly believe the 'biased internet swarm minds' to be correct this one time. Agree to disagree.
> People would also hate Edge despite benchmarks showing its latest iterations, even before the transition to chromium, as being one of the fastest and most performat browsers out there.
No Firefox is but it depends on the hardware. I'd encourage anyone to do their own benchmark - don't let anyone fool you with these paid benchmark guru sites.
If so, I am very jealous -- I have a new, loaded machine with 32gb of ram and I still wonder what on earth is happening during this lag.
Apple introduced those things years ago, Microsoft is only following their footsteps.
See 'the fappening'.
I'm sticking with 10, but it will be my last Windows unless something drastically changes at Microsoft before VR on Linux stops being such a shit show.
Introducing HoloLens v10 ! it fits in contact lenses ! wear it everywhere !
Inclusion of some links bothers me much less. Though I agree it's poor overall.
But I was thinking the same thing when Apple was playing around with the idea of ads on iOS. Aaaand here we are.
Well, time to take another look to check desktop Linux in 2022+ is already viable...
The $4.99 applications Start11 and StartAllBack restore classic versions of the Start Menu on Windows 11.
'Promoted' start menu apps on a fresh install: sure. That's like Amazon Search on Ubuntu.
Promotional text on the lock screen? Sure, once in a while. But it takes a LOT of effort to actually click on that.
Desperate 'make this browser your default' prompts from Edge? Sure, every now and then, but since Firefox and Chrome do it as well, that's pretty much a muscle memory 'No' from me.
Now, on my fully paid-for iPhone 13, I got an urgent notification from the Apple Store today. It made my phone buzz and my screen light up, while I was otherwise productively engaged. Apparently, there is a sale on. Apparently, I can't turn these notifications off.
So, me, a lifelong Windows user, got distracted today by an ad. From Apple. Make of that what you will...
Chrome and Firefox don't get the same ability to make sales pitches if you search for Edge, choose to download Edge, try to install Edge, or update your OS.
Can't speak for the Apple store ad, I haven't seen it but I like in a market which is often thankfully overlooked by invasive marketing pushes like this, and I'm not even sure if what used to be the one Apple store in the country is still open.
This is just plain false. If I open Edge and search Google for just about anything, there will be a prominent ad prompting me to switch to Chrome.
Every. Time. I'm not sure where Firefox puts the focus for their ads (MDN? Fortunately, I don't need to visit that often or ever), but...
An app with the word "store" in its name giving you a notification for a sale is hardly the same as ads embedded in your Start menu or lock screen.
And, I mean, it's an Apple Store app. The app is optional, you can uninstall it if you want; if you have it on your phone, it's not ridiculous to think that you'd want to be alerted to a sale. Ditto for Amazon, or Best Buy, or any other "store" app. It's for shopping, that is the soul purpose of the app. I'd even go so far as to argue that a shopping app giving you notifications for a sale is a good thing (because, if I presumably chose to install that app for the purpose of shopping there, why wouldn't I want to be aware of the fact that the products I presumably want to buy are cheaper?). IMO these aren't even really "ads," they're just notifications from an app doing exactly what it's designed to do. While ads can be delivered via a notification system, notifications and ads are not the same thing.
However, multiple, persistent ads embedded into various places around the OS, with no clear way to remove them -- not to mention pre-installed third-party apps acting as their own advertisement (such as Candy Crush) -- are categorically different on a completely different level, but if you can't see that or don't care then more power to you I guess.
Ads don't need to be clickable. Most ads aren't clickable.
I'm not saying this is wrong, I just don't understand why Microsoft is being singled out. I get it, bashing MS gets clicks from old geeks like me but come on, these aren't "banner ads" or MS selling the start menu to the highest bidder ... it's them pushing their own services that extend Windows ... just like iCloud.
(They also look pretty distracting if you're after your recently-used files and already know about these websites!)
said no one, ever.
It's especially galling because this is already a solved problem, and there is no technical issue causing it. It's microsoft intentionally making their user experience worse because they are betting it will make them money. The win95 start menu was better for launching programs. The Spotlight search tool as it existed in osX in 2007 was vastly superior for search.
When I type "inventor" I see files, web, document and then app results.
After my 3rd or 4th test, I saw Bing web results in the right hand panel which did include ads (ironically for the exact software you mentioned).
Are these the ads to which you are referring?
My start menu looks like it did in the 7 days, because I turned off the entire side panel that had all the "tiles". Even the panel that comes up when I click in the "search" bar (which is not the start menu!) is devoid of basically any tiles, because they are all hidden.
I literally never saw the candy crush tile, because I installed windows myself from a microsoft CD, turned off every option on the "personalization" or whatever page when you do a fresh install, and have no OEM bloatware as well.
Correct! Both of these are bad!
Unfortunately, a lot of people here and elsewhere get really upset when you make the simple observation that iOS is adware.
Linux is the only modern OS that doesn't have ads. (Though Ubuntu is trying to change that...)
This is my point - Apple and Google are given passes while everyone dunks on the old, increasingly irrelevant, dead horse.