Comment by orblivion | Hacker News Reader

Comment by orblivion | Hacker News Reader

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Do you think that any of these things have cult-like tendencies, or is it a completely distinct phenomenon? It seems like people can go down a rabbit hole to varying degrees. I know I have that tendency. I went down the Scott Adams rabbit hole and allowed him to convince me of some silly things, but I had enough self-awareness not to get too sucked in. And it seems like QAnon is a much more extreme version of the same thing. You grew up in a cult, so I'm guessing you didn't have the same transformative experience of a new recruit. I could see the evidence that QAnon people were posting on Twitter for their beliefs, the apparent predictions and signs in what the president was saying or posting on Twitter. And because of my mental health history, I know the feeling of seeing something really convincing like that, and feeling the ground drop out from under you, and your whole world suddenly change (even if I snap out of it later). I can see behind the curtain, I know something about the nature of reality that everyone would think is ridiculous because they just haven't seen it yet. I always imagined that this is how a cult gets a new recruit.

I don't know if QAnon has the radical separation aspect where you can't be friends with former members if you leave. But QAnon is certainly something bad. Does it have aspects of a cult, to you? Is there such a thing as varying degrees, even if it's not a real cult until it reaches the threshold?

Are there varying degrees? Sure.

Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet?

I think that gets back to grandparent's point that not everything is a cult and you diminish the term using it so freely. "There's a group that believes things I don't like and think is silly" is not a cult. I don't think you understand the sheer degree of social pressure cults can bring to bear, and I don't think that sort of pressure can be transmitted over a channel the so-called cult member can just shut off and disappear and nobody knows how to follow them. Or, to put it another way, when the exit is as easy as the entrance, it really can't be a cult. I think critical to the cult aspect is that you can't just leave. Did Scott Adams chase you down and tell his followers to harass you? No, of course not. How could he? Neither he nor anyone else even so much as noticed you. That's not a cult by any definition.

It's not the silliness of the beliefs, I'm talking about the rabbithole thinking phenomenon. What I saw with QAnon (and I experienced in my own thinking) reminds me of what I hear about Scientology, where people are revealed increasingly fantastical things as they continue in.

I'm not saying this makes a cult, I'll take your point there. But I am wondering if it's an aspect of a real cult, i.e. if these can be called "cult tactics". And if so, if there's at least value in making the qualified comparison. QAnon is still detrimental, introspection still worthwhile to avoid such things, etc. Nobody will chase me down, but it can still be detrimental (even if not a cult) if I still actually believe in it (which I imagine many cult members do and which also helps keep them in the cult).

And to be clear, Scott Adams wasn't detrimental other than making me feel stupid. QAnon is worse.

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult?

Ostracism and doxxing work well. The latter opens up opportunities for SWATing.

> how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet?

In Qanon the "secret rite" is going down the YouTube rabbit hole and writing endless diatribes for other cult members to consume.

"In Qanon the "secret rite" is going down the YouTube rabbit hole and writing endless diatribes for other cult members to consume."

No, that lacks the characteristics of all "secret rites". If you're "writing diatribes" and posting them publicly, that's not secret, for one.

I can't exactly write an essay here about what secret rites are and what a key structural component they are, but you can get a good sense about them from reading about hazing, then amping it up to the next degree: https://people.howstuffworks.com/culture-traditions/national... (It was actually hard to find something that actually talks about why it occurs and is a stable pattern in human subcultures, rather than just decrying it without explanation. I don't like it and don't agree with it; in hindsight, I accidentally broke the hazing chain in my high school band because I refused to propagate it. It was an accident, though, because I didn't understand the purpose. Now I do, and both know even more effectively how I'd break the chain and how to attain similar goals in an organization in positive and healthy ways deliberately, instead of accidentally.) "Writing endless diatribes" is nothing like hazing and accomplishes none of the same goals.

Again, if you're going "but but but" in order to try to salvage the idea, you're trying to hard, and the reason I'm banging on this is the same reason the original poster posted. If you want to understand cults, you need to not fall into the trap of declaring your high school band, a popular Pokemon internet forum, or a chess enthusiast club to be "cults" too. Cults are a very serious problem that deserve to be understood, not minimized because some people want to use the term to slur some other people online.

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult?

The usual way -- ostracization. If your main socialization is via the cult, then leaving means losing your friends. The stupidity of the cult means you have pushed away most other people.

I would say this continues to be "I have a definition and I want to stretch it to fit because I like calling those people 'cultists'". It sounds like I'll be "ostracized" exactly the same if I leave HN, if we stretch "ostracization" to include "well, I used to talk to those people in that forum but now I don't, so I'm being 'ostracized'".

I wasn't in a "cult" because I was once, a long time ago, in an Ultima fan community, but then was "ostracized" because I left. I just left. There were no consequences beyond the fact that I left. The problem with cults is that they don't "ostracize" you by virtue of failing to chase you down if you leave, they are cults because they do chase you down if you leave. Again, I have a hard time believing in "cults" when the "cult" in question literally doesn't even notice you. That's not a cult.

There’s being ostracized, and then there’s being ostracized.

Or said less opaquely, most people have never truly experienced being ostracized in the way that a cult can. Most people have social ties outside of a group, and maintain those, even if their primary social ties are cut (as you’ve alluded to).

(I know we are arguing the same side of this point, I just wanted to emphasize it)

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