For some with ADHD, the low rumble of brown noise quiets the brain
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
Fast forward as an adult I have a number of coping mechanisms and one of them is to have something on in the background. I have never associated the effectiveness with the noise itself, but rather with something that is keeping part of my brain quiet. It prevents my mind from wandering. It is ideally something I already know. Like a show I have seen before or a podcast that I am okay not fully retaining. Not enough stimulation and I get distracted easily, too much stimulation and I shut down completely. Music doesn't usually work for me.
Out of sight, out of mind.
Similarly, drawers and cabinets remove things from existence. Only a wall of open shelving will do. Is this ADHD, or something else ?
Then the only remaining challenge is to convince the wife to put them up in front of every wall.
https://williambasinski.bandcamp.com/album/the-disintegratio...
The combination of noise, repetition, and minimal melody really helps me focus.
- I don't get into the groove despite the music
- Something clicks and I get into the groove
- I'm so deeply in the groove that even lofi hip hop bothers me, so I turn it off and go ham
Also I find it funny that lofi hip hop has an alternate title of "beats to relax/study to"--I used to listen to it while studying in college, but now I use it for working on personal projects or at work.
Really anything without lyrics. Talking has a way of hijacking the attention centers in my brain.
I feel like it’s related to once I hit the point where I’m really into what I’m working on.
Either way the silence gives a great feeling of relief. I sleep with a noise generator in my room and can't really do without it (tiny noises fill me with adrenaline at night) but when I wake up and turn it off my body loves me for returning the silence.
Music for Airports, with even less repetition.
But if I listen to music with lyrics in language which I don't speak, then I don't get distracted.
Spanish mambo works well for me. Also I've recently listened to some operas.
Classical music is good and bad. A lot of classical has instruments that I don't like, and some of the music is too erratic for focus.
Samarost 3
Hundered Days
Far Lone Sails
Far Changing Tides
Obduction and Myst series
The Red Strings Club
Conspiravision (which is a remake of Deus Ex OST)
Hyper Light DrifterGet a recommendation for a neuropsych and get a diagnosis. People here love to objectify and hate on anyone using stimulants. A 5mg dose of stimulants daily has quite literally changed my life. You don't have to live wondering what you could've been cognitively capable of.
If it's within your means to do so, I can't stress enough how much better it is knowing, for sure.
For more info see the book "Taking Charge of Adult ADHD" by Russel Barkley https://www.amazon.com/dp/1462546854 and the DIVA-5 test that many physicians use as part of the diagnosis process https://www.divacenter.eu (costs 10 EUR to download the PDF).
There is strong clustering for sure, but also good and recent evidence that ASD, ADHD, and ASD + ADHD (the community has adopted the term Audhd) are distinct at a genetic level. Those and related comorbidities are tied to dopamine transport, and thought to be strongly impacted by endocrine disruption. Brain scans reveal most differences in the basil ganglia and cerebellum, and then downstream dysfunction in the frontal lobe with executive function and sensory processing issues.
Mostly the benefit is understanding yourself and allowing a measure of grace for your challenges. It helps you calibrate your goals, and be self aware when making decisions that you may be suffering an executive function deficit, and to seek known good supports for managing impulse control challenges.
There was a time when I started taking stimulant meds, but still felt the need to finish off-topic ideas to completion. It took a lot of learning to understand that my instincts need scrutiny, and that I don't have to beat myself up for not being able to do impossible things on a regular basis.
I like myself better. I get more of the important stuff done. I can even relax from time to time. I also accept that I will always have some unique struggles and special abilities.
CBT strategies are probably good for everyone to familiarize themselves with. You can probably use things like grounding at the very least. I found it useful. Some relaxation techniques could be valuable.
Stimulant access is becoming a massive issue these days. I think we need legislation that grants it as a right to people with ADHD or narcolepsy. I think there's even a case for legalization.
Relationships with psychs can be complicated, and the medical industry is not very kind to ADHD. eg. you can get fired by your psych and be abandoned with medication, basically for having ADHD.
People with ADHD are perceived to have behavioral problems. Those same problems can be used as an excuse not to treat you.
I think this is may main takeaway from this thread.
The tendency for poor undiagnosed people to attempt to self-medicate just to feel okay is considered a factor that places them at-risk to abuse the medication in the minds of many, when medicating the ADHD would be extremely helpful to reduce self-medication in many situations.
Adult non-professionals and "losers" who have managed to get diagnosed, a huge hurdle in and of itself, often face an uphill battle to get a prescription, much of which is unnecessary and based in classism and racism.
Adderall is not a very good recreational stimulant.
My friend, we/they have a physical neurological defect that is helped by medication. We are not high.
Like someone who is short sighted benefits from glasses.
I used to drink far too much - that was a way for me to quiet the noise in my head - and now I'm aware (and have meds), I can drink sensibly.
I used to be late for everything - this is because I hate waiting and would rather have been late than have to kill ten minutes doing nothing. Now I know, I give myself things to do before the meeting (or whatever) starts.
I used to have a long-running internal conflict between my need to plan and control everything and my desire to "go with the flow" and take things as they come. Now I understand there are some things that I need to keep tight control over and all the rest I can just let it happen.
It's possible I would have come across these strategies without the diagnosis, but I'm in my late 40s and was only diagnosed last year. I had been failing with all the strategies I had tried and it was resulting in me hating myself and feeling inadequate that I was unable to cope with things everyone else seemed to find easy. But now I know the cause, I know where my boundaries are and what I can and can't "fix".
(As for blood pressure - mine was borderline high but it actually fell once I started taking the meds - I assume this is because I was actually more relaxed and able to cope with life).
I was diagnosed but also have High Blood Pressure (HBP), genetics, and most of the meds we tested cause an uncomfortable rise in pressure that just wasn't worth it.
My coping mechanisms are what I have left I suppose.
[0]: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
Pretty sure it doesn't help with blood pressure, but especially the way to common Ritalin comes with weird side effects that most people likely won't enjoy.
Unfortunately stimulants don't have much of an affect on me so I take quite a high dose at the moment. I'm doing all the suggested things to help them along, like increasing protein, getting more Zinc, Magnesium, Vitamin D etc, staying away from citrus. Ensuring good sleep hygiene.
I see a psychologist regularly to unpick the weight of all the masking and coping mechanisms. It's a long process, but making much more progress than when I thought it was just depression and perfectionism issues.
I'm starting Neurofeedback to see if that helps and planning to use an ADHD specific performance coach in the new year to help with work.
I've been curious about neurofeedback too. You mean the ones that record physiological responses right? Theres also brain stimulation devices which seem intriguing https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20190422/fda-permits-...
Then it hit me like a brick wall. Now I understand the phrase "it was like time stopped." Blinders came off and I felt like I re-evaluated every life experience I'd had in about 30 seconds. Two doctors appointments later I was hearing "Oh yes, you certainly have intense ADHD, the question is just how intense."
ADHD affects so many things as you mention. For me, getting treated has nearly entirely eliminated all forms of anxiety. For instance, I was a socially anxious mess in any sort of group setting; now I intentionally seek out conversations and enjoy telling stories. Some days I hardly recognize the old me. Strange feeling.
But yes, diagnosis + treatment highly recommended. Untreated ADHD increases your risk factors for so many things -- for instance, substance issues (NIH estimates fully 50% of people with substance issues have ADHD whether they know it or not).
Additionally, it's an unknown how long the current acceptance of ADHD (etc) will last in modern / western countries. We could just be going through a limited-time golden period.
That's not the biggest worry. The largest psychological hurdle is seeing how much better your brain is with an illegal medication, and accepting the very uncomfortable truth that a pill that's often maligned, misunderstood, abused, and controlled is the difference between a fulfilling life and a slow spiral into the Abyss. Your fortune is not completely in your control.
As someone that has relied on himself all of his life, this idea still is very hard to live with.
I am interested in if you could elaborate on how ADHD medication helps you with anxiety.
I was told that it can affect my health insurance, my mortgage and that I can't hold certain licenses (Pilot, HGV).
There are some direct consequences to being diagnosed and some indirect ones; and they warn that once the process of getting diagnosed starts; it cannot be stopped.
So, of course, I didn't seek a diagnosis- despite having many ADHD markers.
The pilot thing is the same in AU too.
Regarding the mortgage thing, I had the same feeling as you, but how it works is that mortgages are cheaper if you buy them with private insurance (income protection, life insurance).
For example: Nordea (a bank) and “If” (an insurance company) have a close partnership offering discounts for each others services when buying an apartment or house. Based on the information If gives backs to Nordea there can be greater discounts on mortgages; this worked in my favour previously and I got a 1.34% mortgage when the list price for 3y fixed was 2.1%.
It could be expanded further to say that if “If” considers me too high risk from various factors regarding my health that they would not even offer me health insurance at all, then the bank could use as justification itself that I am high risk and not extend a loan offer.
I knew beforehand even (guessed at least), but I put off doing anything about it. I didn't realize how much it was affecting me. And how many unhealthy coping mechanisms I had built up in my life.
FWIW, this is exactly what it's like for me too - "Not enough stimulation and I get distracted easily, too much stimulation and I shut down completely."
Usually fits that niche cause I'm interested but I can live without knowing how many moons does Jupiter have
And with stuff like audiobooks you can't doze off because you loose track, but with this you'd just missed 1 of the 10 things he was talking about
Didn't realise this was a common coping mechanism till I asked around and both my brothers do it (Adult ADHD diagnosis) and one friend (Also diagnosed).
Here's a couple of live streams I regularly listen to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4sJkuOPUP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfKfPfyJRdk
And here's a channel that as well as sometimes having a livestream regularly uploads ~1 mixes:
Music also works for me by triggering an emotional state that helps me focus.
I feel like I might "snap" one of these days and start telling people to STFU. The noise is dominated by a couple of people who, for whatever reason, can't seem to modulate their volume. Perhaps there's a name for that disorder as well?
In the meantime, my workplace has "focus rooms" which I use a few times a week. Since there's a box of tissues in there, I refer to them as crying rooms :-).
But my favorites, metal and reggeaton just distracts me too much because of the lyrics.
Getting diagnosed was one of the best thing I could have done. Knowing for sure, being able to use medication (although I limit very strictly how much I use) has been super helpful. I got tested privately, without involving health insurance. I didn't want it to be on any public records.
I did find that Rhodiola, Green Tea extract, Raw Cacao, and low dose of L-DOPA, and Lions mane does make an impact in helping me handle it as now I notice I am starting to get to the point of mind-seeing code which is a first with me in that I have 4+decades of my ADHD being uncontrolled(mind seeing code happens at about the 6 month point after you get the right med doses settled)
Yes. I've listened to some albums 100s of times and they are so familiar they aren't distracting but actually help me focus.
If I listen to something interesting and new it's harder to focus. If I listen to primarily speech (Howard Stern, podcast, etc.) forget it.
I had the same experience as a kid, but I didn't try the noise thing yet.
Mostly, because music leads to very emotional responses.
But, maybe I should try other "sounds". My mind keeps wandering all the time and it's quite stressful.
What's working for me is listening to the same lofi channel, which helps me focus without being disturbed by the music because it's, hmm, generically bland. Like some brain filling. But still enjoyable. (a bit harsh definition for a genre I like)
I become too emotionally invested when I listen to any other kind of music.
So lofi for work!
Those pesky ADHD-Impulsive giving us a bad name.
Same here, diagnosed but I was the most calm and polite kid ever. The hyperactivity is inside my head. There's a hamster running in circles at 9000 RPM and it's never taken a break.
"You're overthinking it", people say to me. You have no idea.
I’d often think about social interactions ahead of time. My brain would create countless situations that I’d play out. Once I exhausted one situation, I jump into analyzing the next possible situation. On and on I’d go.
I’ve only recently been able to quiet down my beehive brain a bit thanks to a few realizations I came to about the damage it was doing to me:
- Even after analyzing 100 different possibilities, reality would often be much different than the scenarios I thought about.
- When the situation didn’t play out exactly as I’d imagined, I’d still react instantly without thinking through the new variances. In my foolishness, the unexpected scenario seemed close enough to the ones I had already thought about, so I’d respond off the cuff.
In reality, things were different enough that a pause to think would’ve been better.
- Thinking through 100 different scenarios also meant going through the emotional baggage that came with them. In my mind, sometimes people reacted positively and sometimes negatively.
Imagining all the negative ways someone could react would lead me to attributing negative feelings to them, even though they haven’t responded negatively.
On the flip side, if I attributed a specific positive outcome to someone that didn’t live up to my exact interpretation, I’d end up feeling disappointed with an outcome I should’ve been happy with.
- Lastly, I’d push to resolve a situation immediately because I didn’t want to go through another beehive of scenarios while waiting to continue the conversation another time.
Sometimes that push to resolve the conflict resulted in a positive breakthrough. However, other times the person would agree to a certain resolution due to sheer exhaustion which leave us with an unsustainable outcome.
Of course, there were other things that helped calm my brain down. Things that helped me take a step towards these realizations and act on them.
Hopefully, my comment can be one of those steps for someone else.
Please share. Great comment, BTW. Enlightening for someone like me who suffers from the same situation and hates himself for it.
It’s tough to share many of the other steps I’ve taken on a public forum. Honestly, I doubt they’d be as helpful as my previous comment because they’re so personal. Because they are so specific to me.
However, I can share that group therapy is the main resource I used to take those steps. I highly recommend it.
What’s nice about group is that I get to hear various perspectives on a situation. Everyone there has gone through somewhat similar struggles but their interpretations of those struggles are different.
As each person speaks, I find a nugget of wisdom that I can use. A bit of insight that I wouldn’t realize on my own. A phrase that finally helps a concept click in my head.
Of course 1-on-1 therapy is helpful too but group is a treasure trove of insight for personal growth.
Yeah, that's not very healthy.
The conversation is imaginary but the emotions are real.
I used to think my ability to deep dive situations was a superpower but it’s really a curse.
Thankfully, I’m learning to shed the worst of it.
Hope you can too.
Anyways, thanks for sharing. It's a little good to know I'm not unique in these tactics.
It probably started when I was much younger with much worse asthma and always had a HEPA filter running in the background. Eventually this turned into basically always having some kind of fan in my primary locations. Right now I dig the Coway air filters on low or medium.
Even beyond the alleged "noise floor dopamine boost", I find some kind of background whoosh really nice for masking otherwise variable sounds, such as cars, airplanes, and the wind, which are far more distracting.
10/10 would recommend running some sort of air filter all the time. Plus, cleaner air (air pollution has all kinds of bad effects).
At home best I’ve found is ear plugs with music in background.
Or I can take my medicine and the horrific pain of boredom goes away. I just get a few days of severe nerve pain throughout body.
I don’t know why but I feel a million times better with ear plugs in. I had these etymotic ear plugs that were more like sound filters for years before I lost them, and I loved them so much. I’d wear them with headphones over top while working for this oddly silent and muffled sound experience.
I didn’t replace the etymotics because my wife was too embarrassed to be around me having these things in. But at a restaurant or other loud places they were an absolute saviour.
I use AirPods in a similar way, but it’s not as nice. Sometimes I actually just want plain old ear plugs. Even so, the AirPods are a lot better than nothing at all. I use them with no sound perhaps more often than I do with sound.
After one month, I managed to sleep by wearing something like these: http://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/2FLL3_AS01...
and over that, thick headphones playing a recording of popcorn in a microwave.
I managed to stay 4 months there.
I do find those work (and I keep a pair in my toiletry bag which I take just about everywhere), but if I leave them in for prolonged periods I find my ears start to hurt. Almost like I could be developing some kind of inner ear skin irritation.
Do you clean your earplugs daily? I discovered I had to after a minor ear infection. Wet wipes alone didn’t cut it. Needs wet wipes + hand sanitizer. Don’t forget the case too.
I also made the mistake of putting the AirPods on too quickly after a shower. I was like 90% dry but inpatient. That too can trigger ear infections.
I have tinnitus. And after starting to use Airpod Pros, I feel the tinnitus has become *much* worse. And I basically don't have any music on. And if I do, at very low levers. I basically just use the transparent mode, or silence mode.
Am I the only one experience this? I'm sort of hestistant to use Airpods to not risk getting permanent worse tinnitus. At the same time, they are very practical. And the dampening of noise makes work and concentration easier.
What is this? I get the same experience and my docs haven’t given any explanation after multiple times bringing it to their attention.
Heavy vitamin regiment has reduced issues. LDN, and getting a previously undiagnosed autoimmune condition under control has given me some tolerance.
I still avoid Medication as best I can. But Family likes having a house.
You can however train yourself on to a sound machine or off of one. Some people can’t fall asleep unless the tv is on or the radio or a podcast… same principle. But it really only makes sense if you environment is quiet in general.
Loud music in the next room never stopped me from sleeping as a kid. I'd wake up when the music turned off, though.
> It probably started when I was much younger with much worse asthma and always had a HEPA filter running in the background. Eventually this turned into basically always having some kind of fan in my primary locations.
Same exact experience.
Reddit posted a similar trick a few years ago, but in my experience, massage seems to be just as good, so if you haven't tried it, do so and you might get some relief from that.
Between switching to a standing desk and the Theragun, my hips/back/neck are in much better shape than they were a few years ago.
As someone with both (and particularly bad tinnitus) I look forward to my new air filters/fans.
The paranoia of needing the inhaler due to allergies/whatever would itself trigger a panic attack.
Since my ADHD diagnosis (aged 38!) I can happily leave the house without the inhaler without fear of needing it - but only when I'm on stimulant meds.
The ADHD diagnosis has brought to light several things which I never knew would be connected.
The meds are life changing in many ways more than just help with concentration.
I've used them to sleep like a baby in a tent at a music festival when all my campmates woke up tired and complaining from lack of sleep.
When working I use Endel / Brain.fm.
Go to Accessibility -> Audio/Visual -> Background Sounds -> Sound -> Dark Noise
After that go to Accessibility -> Accessibility Shortcut -> Background Sound and you'll be able to activate the noise with a tripple side button click
I have been using a 90-minute Brown Noise loop on Spotify, but even though it is downloaded on my phone, I have to connect to the internet to start using it, which can lead to distractions when messages start pouring in.
If I can help it I just use: play -n synth brown on any linux system with sox installed... it's definitely the cleanest sound I've found.
Problem with most phone programs is that despite brown noise being comically easy to generate live, they record a clip and then loop it so there's weird artifacts.
I honestly don't know why I don't have the ability to run such a trivial command for an open source system on my phone. If I paid for a phone app to make noise it'd be inferior for money. I don't know why it's not at least equal for money.
I have a home automation on Hubitat to play a 10-hour brown noise file, hosted on a home Ubuntu server, created in Audition to play for night time on a Sonos speaker.
Would love to get rid of the file and just get a live generated output.
Using 'play -n synth brown' is easy if it's an option. I'd probably use a sound file if it were harder.
mkfifo brown.wav
sox -n brown.wav synth brown
?For some reason, that shell can go out of his own box, so he can write into obsidian files for instance.
The play command trigger the phone media player but there is a package manager and it’s akin to git-bash for instance. It ‘s provably a pain but it boils down to find the right binaries.
It’s called “a-shell”, there is others. I use this one for simple things but it can run cron for instance. It kinda changed how I use my old crappy iPhone. ( moving file around )
EDIT: actually in that short time I got what I needed: play -n -n --combine merge synth brownnoise band -n 550 550
Put it in a .command file, renamed it as .app, dragged it to the dock, renamed it .command, and now I can quickly trigger it from the dock at any time.
Thanks a lot!
play -n -n --combine merge synth '24:00:00' brownnoise band -n 750 750 tremolo 50 1
If you come up with anything please let us know.
[1] https://www.cloudacm.com/?p=3145
[2] https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php
play -c 2 --null synth brownnoise reverb bass 6 treble -3
play -c 2 --null synth brownnoise reverb bass 10 treble -6
Diagnosed around 40, concerta helps with focus but does not provide a calming effect.
Thanks for this eye opener!
`Brew install sox` for those wondering how to get this working on macos.
`play -n -n --combine merge synth brownnoise band -n 550 550 tremolo 50 1 vol -17dB reverb bass 10 treble -6`
Despite the sliders being a straight line, it's not really brown noise, as the slope starts going down again below 550Hz. (Which is a good thing in terms of being nice to listen to: this sounds more natural, and pure brown noise has too much bass to use with headphones.)
I was able to get pretty close (80% ?) in Audacity with Generate > Noise > Brownian Noise,
followed by Effect > High-Pass Filter > 550Hz (12dB roll-off).
So, I am wondering how brown noise fans find the noises of travel. The different synthesizers posted in this thread overlap a lot with highway and airliner environments for me. Different vehicles had different equalization, of course.
Another sound this reminds me of is the old background rumble they put in the Star Trek Next Generation TV show to represent their shipboard environments.
The command I'm using is `play -c 5 -n synth brown vol -20dB`.
[1] https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php
> In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic. [2]
That's a little more than slightly. I've got no clue what in the article brought that up for you or how you're relating it back.
ADHD is only a disorder because human pegs must be pounded into the square holes of class in a sterile schoolroom behind bars, during daylight hours for much of the year, in preparation for white-collar office jobs that many of them won't achieve, but nevertheless you must sit down, pay attention to lectures and study irrelevant things.
And if you can't pay attention, don't take away their computers, video games, or reduce their screen time, just pump them full of amphetamines until they're so drowsy during the day they're just struggling to fall asleep.
ADHD is very Harrison Bergeron, and the schizophrenic Vonnegut knew exactly what he was writing about.
Go speak to an adult with ADHD, listen to them and find out the real pain and anguish experienced by someone with ADHD. Many people desperately want to do well in school, have a career and successful relationships but are held back by their disorder. Instead, they experience joblessness, poor human relationships and unfulfilled dreams. People with diagnoses in later life experience genuine grief. The medication and counseling can help a lot, but it can't fix a divorce 10 years ago or getting fired repeatedly. The damage is done.
There are many symptoms of ADHD that I consider severe impairments - especially the short term memory loss.
However there are symptoms of it that I prefer over my state of my mind while medicated. The freedom of direction of thought is much more pleasant than the drive to focus intensely on one task - but is simply at odds with the world around me driven by productivity.
This is just wrong. I have ADHD and it can prevent me from doing and completing tasks that I decide to do myself and which are entirely on my own schedule. The constraints and expectations of others certainly don't help, but even if I lived in a world where I never had to be anywhere at a specific time, never had to perform any task that didn't interest me, and always had total freedom over where/when/how I performed the activities I chose to participate in I would still suffer because of ADHD and I'd still require medication.
ADHD is not just some quirky march to the beat of a different drum thing that wouldn't be a problem if people were only more accepting of it. It'll always be a problem for me. Thankfully it's one that can be managed without being 'pumped full of amphetamines until I'm so drowsy during the day I'm just struggling to fall asleep'.
If I'm drowsy during the day its usually because I'm my symptoms get more severe late in the day and it can result in me getting caught up in something and staying up until long after I should have gone to bed. That's something I've noticed I can struggle with both on and off medication. It isn't too often it's a problem though.
If you'd like to propose societal reforms that greatly reduce the amount of paperwork required of adults or allow ICs to just say "hey I'll probably not get anything done like 70% of the time but the other 30% will be pretty good" then I'll support them, but they don't seem to be forthcoming.
It's almost like, ADHD is the disease you have when you're "unable to do consistent & focused work". Obviously medically it's some dysfunction in dopamine regulation, but how many underpaid overworked teachers/parents have access to equipment that would actually measure that? Maybe some kids are gasp bored in school, or shudder don't mesh with the thought-system of menial productivity the school -> work pipeline tries to instill.
I agree the diagnostics are unhelpful. I think takes like this are equally if not more unhelpful. I definitely struggled with boredom and didn’t mesh with the design of my educational programs… but I also struggled intensely with anxiety and depression, both very deeply rooted in my ADHD experience. I struggled with them for decades before I understood what my experience was and found helpful treatment. I may well have suffered a much less severe and much shorter time had I not had a parent who was just as dismissive of the actual disorder I experience.
Your take is the same as the diagnostics: attributing it to externally observed childhood behavior that doesn’t suit adults. Meanwhile adults with undiagnosed and untreated ADHD experience higher anxiety and depression, higher suicide rates, higher rates of substance abuse. We’re permanently in a state of trauma.
Instead of rescuing kids from symptoms assigned to them by adults, if you want to help kids with ADHD, help them have a voice about what they feel and need.
I'm not saying all ADHD diagnoses are false. My prescription will always be, do whatever helps you. If a kid says ADHD meds/accomodations help them with no problems, then I'm very supportive of continuing that. But if others have been on and quit the meds even before adulthood, and they still feel unable to focus/depressed/etc., maybe we should consider that the problem isn't in their body.
Rather than like, that's approximately half of what mental healthcare is, and "people not meshing with society" is known by dozens of different specific technical names depending on the details of what "not" or "mesh" or "society" looks like in any given case?
This is embarrassing. One of the worst cases of HN "I just noticed something outside my field so it must be a novel insight!" I've ever seen.
> Rather than like, that's approximately half of what mental healthcare is
> That needs more awareness?
So you're saying mental healthcare (in the U.S., mind!) doesn't need more awareness, got it
> This is embarrassing.
That was an uncharitable strawman.
If it's not a powerful enough effect to disorder your life, or you've developed adequate coping mechanisms, the diagnosis isn't appropriate. You can have people with the same subjective experience, same "symptoms" and one can be considered to have adhd and the other not. If you change your life in such a way that the effects you have are no long disruptive to it, don't negatively affect you, it's not adhd anymore.
What is a disorder or not is determined by the environment, not the individual. The social model of disability applies just as much to mental as physical.
Donate if you can, it's a great resource. No affiliation, just a happy user.
I use this all the time, long before the article. White nose improves focus in everyone, not just ADHD folks.
This workflow is part of my standard work. If I have a document to read, a code review, or something that’s not mechanical coding (which I use music for), brown noise helps increase focus.
It feels smoother and more relaxing to me.
That might make it better for you.
I wonder if this is the reason lofi music has taken off in a big way with the static in the background - (something we’re experimenting with at Double https://doubleapp.xyz)
Edit: also remembered about the Kia instrument that popped up - it’s based on making music with pink noise https://www.kia.com/us/en/movement/our-instrument
Totally agreed on the network effects point - that’s why we made the Double Communities and are focusing on growing those!
I also use an app called Chroma Doze from F-Droid, which can generate different spectrum noise. My only gripe with it is there's no "presets", or no way to export/import presents.
I'm going to check that app out - thanks for sharing!
What's going on?
So car makers may rely more on advertising that builds their brand, rather than convincing you to buy a specific product today.
Building a toy app that people actually want to play with is a great way to get your brand name and logo visible installed semi-permanently on people (and their devices).
Early continuous white noise exposure alters l-α-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazole propionic acid receptor subunit glutamate receptor 2 and γ-aminobutyric acid type a receptor subunit β3 protein expression in rat auditory cortex
White noise and ADHD https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C10&as_vi...
Noise Exposure Alters Glutamatergic and GABAergic Synaptic Connectivity in the Hippocampus and Its Relevance to Tinnitus https://www.hindawi.com/journals/np/2021/8833087/
Gene Expression Identifies Distinct Ascending Glutamatergic Pathways to Frequency-Organized Auditory Cortex in the Rat Brain https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/45/15759.short https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jnr.22232
I am a fan of Infected Mushroom, Talpa, Grouch and the 296h "Psytrance Collection - Full-On, Offbeat & Progressive" playlist on Spotify.
But for me music is only for menial tasks. For deep thinking, it's silence and frantically pacing around the house with pen and paper. Can't think if I'm still, one of the reasons a regular cubicle job would annihilate my creativity.
I quite like their recent "Head of NASA" album, but my favourite one is "Legend of the Black Shawarma".
For those that do the techo/trance/electronica.
Check out di.fm. A couple decades ago !!!! I wrote a large fraction of one startup's code base listening to them and groove salad on soma.fm. Then when they died during the .com bust, I flipped over to another and repeated the process at a place that survived selling said product for another 20 or so years. Caffine and vocal trance calmed the head down enough to sit in that flow state for 8+ hours a day for weeks on end and just hammer it out.
For meetings, I fell back on tricks I discovered in elementary school—I found that when I drew pictures or doodled, I could pay attention better to what was being said; a partial distraction (say 10% of my attention) allowed me to focus the rest of my attention on what was being taught. However if I attempted to focus solely on the lecture, my mind would inadvertently wander to daydreaming and I would capture nothing at all.
These kind of noise also really help for blocking distracting background noises, especially when used with noise canceling headphones. I find noise canceling doesn’t work by itself because it lowers the noise floor so much you can hear everything still.
Been a long time lurker and fist time posting. Thank you all for the great analysis and commentary!
Brown noise is really surprisingly good at this. Progressive house at certain BPM’s with limited vocals helps too. On the flip side, certain music, rhythms, etc can be as distracting to me as a mosquito biting at my arm.
I cannot imagine what any of the ADHD meds feel like for normal people, and I suspect a good chunk people don't have the same experience from caffeine. For some, it probably makes them sharper & more awake and so on, but for others it would calm them down and centre the brain and make you feel "normal" for a bit.
In college days when you use it (not prescribed) at least for me I felt amazing. Like everything I did was correct example playing a guitar every chord was played right. I could sit down and cram for 12 hours straight (pretty amazing) and take an exam. I was better at conversing with people since I could focus on their face/not look away/be in the moment.
But yeah that euphoria part is not great. Because you can do the wrong things too/be focused on that.
https://www.amazon.com/Brown-Noise-Loops-Therapy/dp/B06XQRTC...
It’s not just sound, but any sort of background stimulation can help me focus. You can’t play brown noise in a meeting, but you sure can play with a fidget cube in your pocket, and it helps me focus on the content of the meeting. I like taking calls on a walk because background visual noise helps me focus on the call.
> With ADHD, we need to seek an optimal level of stimulation to keep focused.
https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/podcast/the-science-of-fidge...
This could be misconstrued. On the other hand a rosary is a lot less ambiguous.
You can pick Brown Noise in the left column. You can also customize the sound itself.
Personally, I need to shift it a little to accommodate with my tinnitus to get the relaxing effect of white noise.
There is also a "Order as an Audio file" button on MyNoise where you can buy the result of a customized generator.
(Not directly associated to them, just a big fan and power user)
Open White Noise and Co, then tap “custom noise” and select Color. Brown is on the list.
Oh, an yes - I was diagnosed with ADHD like 15 years ago while in early twenties
Interestingly, I've noticed my issue seems to be more about attention than presence of unwanted sound.
Wearing bone-conducting headphones (which don't cover my ears or block sounds) is just as beneficial for my mental state as ANC headphones, as long as ambient sounds aren't loud enough to outcompete my headphones on volume.
All I really need is to give my brain something I want to hear instead of something I'm trying to shut out.
https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php?c=...
I'm guessing you would do coke or meth. MDMA would technically work. I'm in desperate need of stimulant medication, and if things are still bad in the next 5 years or so, I will have to get creative.
Is this the famous "Wind in the Willows"?
I put on a noise canceling headphone with out music (The bose seem to do a good job)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aJDiI_2zr8
very effective.
I use these for many years and listen to brain.fm
There's this place at the back of my university's library in the silent section, I think it's below a large HVAC fan motor or something. There's always a deep 'brrrrrrrrrr' sound going, and it is an absolutely sublime place to work. (https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php?l=... this sounds pretty close to it).
Earplugs help, but for some reason the deep 'brrrrrrrrrrr' is very relaxing. A quiet environment with the 'brrrrrr' is preferable to pure silence (though I'll still take ear plugs over one of those horrific open office environments).
Moving off topic a bit, but other things I do to help focus:
- Redirect bad habit sites (like HN tbh) in the `hosts` file to 127.0.0.1 as a site blocker
- Turn off cell phone, and place well out of arms reach
- Kill & block discord, telegram, ect
(Fortunately, I'm at a place in life where no one really needs to contact me on short notice)
---> The goal being to give my brain literally nothing else to do besides the work <----
(Not perfect since I tend to daydream a lot, but I'm almost graduated uni, so I guess it's working well enough)
If I'm really struggling to get work done, I'll set a countdown timer to create artificial external pressure.
During my internships, and side gigs, I find myself setting up "real work" periods where I (try to) block the world out, and communication periods. (I get along with people too well and chit chat too much otherwise).
In general, if the day-to-day work environment requires just a whole lot of "raw willpower" it's not going to work out. Willpower is for losers anyways, better to remove the distractions / change the environment. (Also fuck MS for constantly trying to weasel more ads into its OS, their new widgets panel in Win11 is literally useless to me for mandatory news ads)
Oh, but MS Edge's read aloud is a god send, it has the best text to speech voices I have access to, and I can use it on any html or pdf article easily. MS giveth, and MS taketh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Unfortunate that zlib died. MS Edge TTS only works with html and pdf, zlib basically let me have any textbook I needed in school read aloud to me as a pdf (janky, but it gets the job done). In particular it really falls apart with math textbooks, but eh.
~ I've rambled too much, back to homework now ~
I found that's a good compromise to outright blocking things, because in reality you do need stimulation, but setting limits to the sources you usually get it from can be very helpful.
Instead of spending 3 hours on a clicker app (so evil) I've allowed myself 5 minutes a day, which means whenever I open it I'm going to do the most important things then close the app as soon as possible, whilst still getting the stimulation I was seeking in the first place.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQdhL-XuKLY
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCVWDHJN288
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co7KgV2edvI
There's no looping I can tell, though, and it is tweakable. So thank you!
ADHD people can seem more bipolar than bipolar people, because the average person doesn't understand these conditions. They would observe someone that's very mercurial and moody, and say it's definitely bipolar.
Bipolar is a state that lasts for and extended time, days to weeks. It doesn't mean you're euphoric in the morning, but depressed two hours later. That could be many things including ADHD.
As someone living with Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder I cannot disagree with this more. I know many people with ADHD and they all are nothing like me.
> Bipolar is a state that lasts for and extended time, days to weeks. It doesn't mean you're euphoric in the morning, but depressed two hours later.
This is not true either for all of us. I have episodes of ultra rapid cycling that means my cycles can be as quick a two hours.
I was speaking to the perception of ADHD. Hair trigger moods are often interpreted as "bipolar"... I'm talking from experience of ADHD symptoms being seen as bipolar.
I wasn't trying to say anyone was just like you :). Just that some ADHD symptoms can be misinterpreted as bipolar, which I'm confident is true.
I'm very interested in the information you provided and appreciate you taking the time to discuses. This could be useful information! Hope you're doing well.
By lay people yes, I would assume so, but most people without a mood disorder have no idea. But msitaking ADHD for Bipolar is much less likely by psychiatrists. I am sure it goes both ways so sorry for painting an overly broad brush, but I have been in the field for a while. ADHD is sort of a thing right now so the trend is misdiagnosis of ADHD.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21318193/
"ADHD was overdiagnosed (all patients with ADHD had received the diagnosis, as did 38% of patients with MDD and 29% of patients with BD, respectively),"
Just a anecdote. Both myself and my nephew were "diagnosed" with ADHD, and both ta the same young age. They gave us both ADHD meds and it led to a horrible manic episode for me and it led to my nephew's suicide.
I'm trying to get put on these meds, because I know how effective they are for me. That said, I will listen to your warning, and your nephews experience. I appreciate the reasonable conversation.
GCH1, NOS1AP, and CACNA1C are three of the main genes causing our sensitivities and mood disorders.
Thanks and good luck.
Why? Why is this happening all of the sudden? Is it genetics? Environment? Culture?
Why is no one asking the important questions and just popping pills and going on with their life?
Because there are a bunch of biases which lead to underdiagnosis. One is that the diagnostic criteria are centered around behavior in children as observed by adults, rather than around what actual symptoms people with ADHD experience directly. Another is the kinds of stigmatization you’ve engaged with here, and in previous threads. Several biases lead to underdiagnosis of women, people of color, poorer people and people with other mental health issues. And in general biases against psychiatric medications.
> Why is this happening all of the sudden?
It’s not. There has been a long term trend, for as long as I can remember, of more people gradually overcoming some of those biases, leading to increased diagnoses. There has been a recent upsurge in diagnoses since the pandemic began, true, with many of its stressors probably contributing to people recognizing symptoms with which they’d coped better previously.
> Is it genetics? Environment? Culture?
Genetics is probably a major contributing factor. ADHD in parents is a strong predictor of ADHD in their children. Environment and culture probably contribute significantly to severity and recognition of symptoms.
> Why is no one asking the important questions
Why do you think so?
> and just popping pills and going on with their life?
Note: I did not encourage anyone to pop pills. And I specifically discouraged self-medication in my encouragement of self-diagnosis. Anyone who takes this advice, and who then decides to consider treatment, should consult with a doctor.
No.
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/timeline.html
It is not possible to tell whether this increase represents a change in the number of children who have ADHD, or a change in the number of children who were diagnosed.
>Genetics is probably a major contributing factor.
Is it your opinion our genetics are changing? Would it not be more likely that the environment was changing?
Mobile Phone Use, Blood Lead Levels, and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Symptoms in Children: A Longitudinal Study https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Effect of Short-Term LTE RF-EMF Exposure on Dopamine Signaling and Behaviors in Mice http://www.jkiees.org/archive/view_article?pid=jkiees-31-10-...
>> Why is no one asking the important questions
> Why do you think so?
I can only speak for myself. Because once I understood the biological pathways that lead to ADHD I saw there was more to the story than just genetics.
> Another is the kinds of stigmatization you’ve engaged with here,
What? I have Schisoaffective Bipolar Disoder, disabled with it for the last 30 years. Off all meds now because I know genetics, the pathways, and the diet/environment that affects me. I do not undersatdn how saying that there is more to ADHD than your psychiatrist knows right now is stigmatizing.
I have no problem with people taking pharm meds.
> https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/timeline.html
> It is not possible to tell whether this increase represents a change in the number of children who have ADHD, or a change in the number of children who were diagnosed
That’s an orthogonal question. The biases I enumerated exist. The extent to which any given one of those biases affect people’s likelihood of diagnosis may vary depending on the bias itself and on the ratio of increased incidence to increased diagnosis. But one of those biases is evident right here in your chosen link: focus on childhood diagnosis. Which, again, is diagnostically centered around outside behavioral observation by adults, not around experienced symptoms of diagnosed patients.
> Is it your opinion our genetics are changing? Would it not be more likely that the environment was changing?
I’m not sure, and I’m not sure what your point is in asking. My point about genetics is that parents with ADHD are highly likely to have children with ADHD. In other words, that it’s heritable. That fact would be true whether
- instances are increasing, eg more people with ADHD having more children
- instances are stable but diagnoses are increasing
- instances are declining in tandem with improved diagnostic outcomes
> I do not undersatdn how saying that there is more to ADHD than your psychiatrist knows right now is stigmatizing.
The stigma you’re contributing is suggesting that people are disinclined to ask important questions in favor of “just popping pills”, which, that being a direct quote…
> I have no problem with people taking pharm meds.
You either very clearly do have a problem with it, or should very seriously reconsider how you discuss the subject. You’ve followed me from one subthread to another making comments of the same sort, and you seem determined to continue making comments like that while insisting they be interpreted how you choose rather than how they’re read. Not just by me.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to achieve. It’s entirely possible you have the best intentions as expressed, and are communicating poorly. It’s also possible you’re overly confident that you know better than the vast majority of ADHD patients and their licensed professional physicians and don’t recognize that such overconfidence deviates from your stated intent. It’s also possible you’re being partially or entirely disingenuous about your intent. I’m not sure, but I am only responding to the words you’re posting.