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Comment by rayiner | Hacker News Reader

I hate the argument we can make up for labor shortfalls with immigrants. Chuck Schumer says “we have a population that’s not reproducing on its own.” https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/communi...

He says we can fix that with immigrants. But if there is something causing people to not want to “reproduce,” it seems like that needs to be fixed. Otherwise, you’re just shifting the burden of dealing with whatever that is onto immigrants trying to raise their families here. Like, I’m glad I’m raising my kids here instead of in Bangladesh. But it’s a lonely and isolating here in comparison to the way it is back home.

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Meanwhile, there's lots of unemployed people in small towns, homeless are filling our cities, and most jobs that can be had pay little. Adding a never ending stream of immigrants to that mix feels like pouring gas on a fire.

And we're currently deliberately trying to curb upward pressure on wages and increase the unemployment rate. While others cry about a labor shortage but apparently conveniently forget how market signals work when it's costing them money. Go figure.

I, for one, would love to see more nurses, doctors, elder care workers. We should want more of these workers, not less. One could argue that AMA needs to be forced to increase the number of workers in these fields and reduce occupational liability for healthcare workers. But even that will fall short of what is required in greying America today. If you want real world evidence of this, look at Canada which is frantically trying to get immigrants because their elderly population has no one to take care of them.

Making people reproduce will take a wholesale change in the American way of life. This would include wholesale changes in food, healthcare, health insurance, housing, inequality and a general well-being of humanity. One party in our country is actively attempting to reduce liberties (this party is red in color if this is not obvious), which makes living in this country a precarious position.

As an older child-free millennial, I am living the scenario described in the article. I can assure you that my life path hasn't been easy for the first 35 years. I have zero interest in making my life even more difficult for the remaining 35, for the sake of society.

Make healthcare easy, then we'll talk. Until then, I thank immigrants in America.

Well the incentives have also shifted.

Long ago your kids were like a retirement policy.

Now society says that's bad. You can't and shouldn't have kids to provide for your own future. No the kids are there, in the ultimate hypocrisy, to provide for everyone elses future via compulsory taxes funding social programs. So everyone else benefits from your raising them, while you disproportionately shoulder the costs, creating a massive "free rider" problem.

> No the kids are there, in the ultimate hypocrisy, to provide for everyone elses future

I don't know why this is being downvoted. If you listen to any republican biased radio/TV, you'd hear people blaming young people all the time. It's like they hate me for not having children BECAUSE it reduces the size of the labor force.

Sorry republicans. I ain't bringing any kids to this world to serve YOU.

The working age labor force serves everyone, not just “republicans.” You also need working age people to pay taxes and provide the government services democrats want. If native born democrats won’t have them, then when they consume services in retirement, they’ll be free riding on republicans and immigrants.

I agree that working age labor force serves everyone. But it is only "Republicans" who want to impose rules on people so that they have birth. If you truly believe in liberty, you also agree to let people live their lives.

> If native born democrats won’t have them, then when they consume services in retirement, they’ll be free riding on republicans and immigrants.

No one is preventing Republicans from having as many babies as they want. Go ahead. Make 100s of them and train them to be skilled. If they can't, I am happy with immigrants filling the gap. The real question is, why do Republicans feel the need to ask "others" to do what they want instead of doing it themselves?

> But it is only "Republicans" who want to impose rules on people so that they have birth.

Let me introduce you to people I like to call Muslims. I was just at a wedding for the daughter of a family friend we haven’t seen in years. She comes over to our table to say hi, and my mom is like “so when are you giving us the next big news?” And she’s like “auntie, after the honeymoon” because it wasn’t a joke.

> If you truly believe in liberty, you also agree to let people live their lives.

Republicans believe in liberty from the government, not liberty from social and moral norms.

> The real question is, why do Republicans feel the need to ask "others" to do what they want instead of doing it themselves?

Because kids are a positive externality that society needs and everyone benefits from. Nobody likes it when they do the work and other people won’t carry their weight.

> Let me introduce you to people I like to call Muslims.

I don't believe Muslims is a political party. But yes, I agree that Republicans in America are closer to Muslim theological societies than western liberal societies.

> Republicans believe in liberty from the government, not liberty from social and moral norms.

And liberty from government is exactly what I seek. I don't want government telling me to produce children.

> Because kids are a positive externality that society needs and everyone benefits from. Nobody likes it when they do the work and other people won’t carry their weight.

Right. And I have been shortchanged enough in life where I also don't like that I did so much work but others didn't carry their weight. My life also matters. I am battered and I cannot afford (mentally, physically and financially) to raise children in the precarious American society. We are in agreement then that other people need to carry their weight before I start having children.

But the immigrants have to come here and deal with all those problems. (On top of dealing with the fear our children will also end up “child-free.”) The fact that they will put up with doesn’t seem like a great reason not to fix the problem.

> The fact that they will put up with doesn’t seem like a great reason not to fix the problem.

Like I said, the happy-path lifestyle structure in America is not suited to reproduction. Sure we must try to fix the problem but we all know it's not going to happen soon. I am likely to die before significant changes happen.

Until then, I still want skilled labor in the right places. I will continue to welcome immigrants who fill that gap.

It's not just "here" though, birth-rates are dropping worldwide with economic development.

This is often touted as a good thing, but the more I think of it it just seems like it isn’t “having such a good life in a developed economy” that makes people have fewer kids.

It seems more and more clear that increasingly competitive economic conditions are the reason people in the developed world have fewer kids.

The US had sustainable birth rates throughout the 1990s to 2008. Not exactly the Stone Age. But they began a consistent downward trend since then.

The cost and regulation of raising children is much lower overseas. It's rational that the US would be a net consumer of children and some of these other nations are net producers of children. Comparative advantage.

And I do mean consume. These adult immigrants pay taxes into the US without having benefitted from US taxpayer provided K-12 education themselves, and we get to consume their labor without having contributed to their upbringing.

It's honestly shocking people have kids at all in the US. Any random chucklhead can call and make up whatever they like to CPS. If you get divorced, you can actually be thrown in debtors prison if you can't come up with a certain amount even if you never even spent close to that amount on the child when you were married (see American dude who was taken hostage while contracted in Iraq, he was imprisoned upon return because he didn't pay CS while being a hostage to terrorists). If you let the kid walk to the park or home you may end up with criminal charges, nevermind both parents need to be busy at work to provide the standard of care CPS requires to not take away the children. And if you're a woman in some states and you find out the kid has debilitating disease you may be forced to go all the way to term knowing you're going to wreck their life and your own.

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