Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount
bloomberg.com
bloomberg.com
It's going to take a long time for these loans to get liquidated, and then processed through the repo markets.
And likely the lenders will hold the repo'd asset longer if they can to not create a glut of vehicles. The way this really get's great for buying repo'd sports cars is if we get forced liquidations from the lenders.
It's going to be a bloodbath.
If someone like Carvana has to liquidate cars at a loss to keep the lights on, you're going to see a FLOOD of cars hit the market as you'll have a rapidly depreciating asset and nobody will want to hold.
Used car prices are falling and I assume it would hurt all of them, but it seems to be hurting Carvana more than the others.
Those CarMax inspections are so valuable that vultures patrol the parking lot, and if you leave without selling your car, they'll follow you home and make an offer on your car.
It happened to me. CarMax said the car was worth $8,500. I wanted to bring in my other car for an evaluation to decide which one to sell. A guy followed me to the grocery store across the street, approached me in the parking lot and started his pitch with, "I'll give you a thousand dollars more than whatever CarMax offered you."
I asked him if he wanted to look under the hood and take it for a test drive or anything, and he said he didn't need to, because CarMax had already done the hard work for him.
(My life situation changed shortly thereafter and I didn't end up selling either car.)
I have asked a couple of used car dealers (not CarMax specificially as there isn't one near here) if they do anything to these cars to prepare them for sale. They just laugh. The margins are not there to repair any problems, so what is the point of inspecting them?
I detailed cars at a dealership and my friend detailed cars at carmax when we were young.
Used car dealers are bottom feeders in the car sales. They generally have crappier cars than big dealers. I'm sure there are exceptions. When I worked at one they did shady fixes and would never purchase car from one.
CarMax performs multi point inspection. They have their own detailers, paint and repair shops. CarMax knows exactly what they are doing and their business model is sustainable.
Purchasing cars ala carvana is insane. In the car groups people often talk about offloading cars with issues to carvana and them sending a tow truck to pick it up. Zero inspections.
Not that car values have crashed 25% or will.
I was seeing 20-year-old Ford Rangers and Chevy S-10s with 200k miles listed on Craigslist for $10k a month ago. If you adjust for inflation that is actually more than they cost when they were new! Pick pretty much any make and model of car and you will see the same thing.
Even just from looking at Craigslist occasionally I have noticed a significant drop in prices for used vehicles in the past month.
That depends on the interest to carry a car in inventory. Contracting margins plus increasing "floorplan" (what dealers call the line of credit they use to buy inventory) rates can be devastating.
Parting them out might make sense.
I don't know that there's a HN bubble. Devotion to ideology seems to be kept in check by people known for their work who'll occasionally come down off the mountain.
what's the difference between a bubble and a point of view? Is my BoF meetup biased because we're sticking to certain subjects?
The market need that Carvana met was reducing the hurdles of buying a used car for those people who generally don't buy used cars. The biggest hurdle is financing. The second biggest is fear of getting a lemon, which is why they have those inspections, guarantees of service and taking the vehicle back. The last hurdle was doing this from the convenience of your home and not dealing with car salesmen. All of these were things that could be done by others, but with more frictions, and Carvana was lowering the bar.
In exchange for adding this value, they are able to charge a premium. That premium is not coming from expert selection of car inventory or buying the cars for less.
Unfortunately the cost that carvana spends to provide these value adds exceeds the premium they can charge. That was true before their margins contracted, and it's even more true now. In fact, carvana is being squeezed like a sandwhich, as as their funding costs are going up even as the willingness of buyers to pay a premium for carvana services are declining, causing the gross margins to go down.
Carvana's biggest cost is rising interest rates. They literally borrowed at 10% in order to extend 5% auto loans to their customers. This is the problem they are in. And there's nothing they can do about their funding costs - investors charge them a premium because it's not clear that carvana is going to be around. Declaring chapter 11 is not going to give them a lower cost of capital, so they will need to get rid of their fleet somehow.
Now whether the fleet goes for a big discount to end consumers has nothing to do with Carvana, because odds are some middleman will buy the fleet, rather than having them do a going out of business sale. We are talking about billions in inventory - an alarming accumulation of inventory:
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CVNA/carvana/inven...
At a higher interest rate, you need to move inventory more quickly, because you are effectively taking out a loan when you buy the car and pay for a warehouse in which it sits and does nothing. The cost of carrying that inventory is higher when rates go up. It is higher for carvana and for whomever buys the fleet. This applies to all inventory everywhere.
So, don't look for special discounts from carvana, look in general for falling prices in the sector as a whole, as dealers and manufacturers continue to get squeezed by the twin rocks of rising interest rates and falling demand.
how could that possibly make any business sense to do?
You say "potato," I say "potato."
Source: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/blog/market-monitor...
I hope so. I've been without a car since just before lockdown in 2020, and it has been long enough (by some time now). It's just an insane time to buy a car, so the time without continues to extend. I might be able to survive another 6 months ;)
As an FYI, I sold a car this spring for 8% over what I paid for it 6 years prior, i.e. it was worth about 85% of orig price adjusted for inflation. Today, edmunds appraises it for 45% of orig price adjusted for inflation.
That is an insane move on a durable asset.
I'll confirm your sale anecdote though. I sold a 16 year old car in May for 19% more than I paid for it in 2018, having driven it about 45,000 miles over that time (120K -> 165K)
Unless your plan is just to leverage easy capital to push CarMax and traditional dealers out of the business like Uber and taxis.
I did all this laying in bed on my phone.
I have some complaints about the quality of their service, but the value prop is pretty amazing.
I am sure they could cut the lawn and feed the dog while there also but none of this sounds profitable in the long term.
It almost sounds like we were in a giant bubble...
The only problem I had was that the delivery tower didn't work when I dropped the coin in both times. First time the car was for me and I didn't really care. The second time it was for my son I would have really liked their gimmick to work.
Edit: I think I misinterpreted your review as glowing, but it was just stating your experience. The towers not working is pretty sad. It reflects the company operating in la-la land though.
I just don't get how people can buy a used car without seeing it or sending over a professional to look at it first.
Most car sellers I've encountered will allow a prospective buyer to take a car to their mechanic to to be looked over BEFORE purchase.
The biggest downside here is if you trade your existing car into Carvana. Sure you've got 7 days to get that newly-purchased car inspected, but what happens when you get the inspection results back and decide you want to unwind the transaction - Carvana will take back the car you purchased but they will not bring your trade-in back to you. Not to mention the general paperwork hassle and the hit to your credit score (if you're financing), all for a car you're not keeping.
I get to the meetup point early (better if it's at their house where I can make judgments from that), and then I watch them drive up. Talk to them for a while, see if they're knowledgeable, etc. Then inevitably you get a name over the course of messaging/texting/email, and you can get more insight about their background. You get to talk to them for a while and find out why they're getting rid of it. If you've gotten to the point of trusting them (otherwise, you're long gone), ask specific questions about car history, and you can have reasonable hopes that they'll tell the truth.
Anyway, the car's been great, and he told me some problems that I would have taken 6 months to discover on my own.
If there's a specific model or models I'm shopping for, I do some research (reviews and forums) to try to get to know their quirks and pitfalls so I can check for them when I go to see the car. I tend to over-research big decisions but with cars it's useful to know what I'm getting into and what to watch for in the future.
Not that I don't doubt the cars they sell are sometimes (often?) trash. I sold a 370z to them this summer and the amount of due diligence they performed before paying was practically nil. They didn't even open the hood, or drive it more than the half mile around the block staying <20mph and probably <20% throttle too. It was mildly horrifying to this ex-gearhead who's bought and sold over a dozen cars/bikes in my time.
Great way to sell your car, awful way to buy your car.
With the 7day/100day cushion (100 days or some # miles for mechanical/safety repairs like brakes) I thought they might be losing money because the car had issues which their repair firm had to take care of. Not many local used car lots are going to do that. Maybe they were scooping up less than ideal inventory and its eating away their profits with the repairs.
https://jalopnik.com/carvanas-legal-counsel-ordered-to-appea...
Sounds like they transferred the title but it wasn't "by a dealer", so it was illegal. In addition:
> In a separate filing on May 12, the agency charged Breaux with two counts of Carvana operating as an unlicensed used-vehicle dealer.
You can of course look up the relevant code on Illinois' wonderful online legislation document: https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=0625...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2017/12/18/how-an-e...
edit: space
Carvana is a DriveTime spinoff, and leverages their existing infrastructure for all used vehicle processing -- massive warehouse-style facilities designed to process those vehicles as rapidly as possible and stage them around.