Bethesda issues statement to Mick Gordon | Hacker News Reader

Bethesda issues statement to Mick Gordon

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148 pointsdonpott86 comments

Aah, yes, the old “you’re only hearing one side of the argument” con. Marty Stratton already provided their side in a Reddit post (well, open letter) about Mick on Bethesda’s behalf.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/gdg25y/doom_eternal_o...

Sadly, I wouldn’t put much money on Mick getting his due, not with Microsoft lawyers (and money to pay those lawyers) as his opponents.

Yeah, it's insane. Marty released a one sided statement publicly. Mick patiently tried to resolve the issue in private for _2 years!_ before resorting to posting a public reply.

Using the "one sided argument" here is extremely disingenuous. To be honest, I don't understand why they replied at all. Doubling down doesn't seem like the right thing to do here.

They should either apologize or just pretend that Mick doesn't exist. Having a public argument doesn't help them at all.

A whole lot of typical corporate waffle. Here is Mick Gordon's post https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-d... providing clear evidence. What a shame. Mick Gordon's Doom Eternal OST is what I use to get through some tough workouts.

Not from the Eternal OST, but I can't think of a song that gets me more pumped for a big lift than BFG Division from the 2016 soundtrack.

The two DOOM soundtracks made me reconsider what "metal" and "electronic music" mean to me. His use of electronic sounds in a metal-ish context was a breath of fresh air to me. I love guitar driven music, but Mick pushed me into new territory and his work is just legendary.

Annoying that Bethesda has to play these stupid games.

If you haven't already, check out Dance with the Dead. It's John Carpenter meets powermetal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ted2nlBSSRU

Just got around to listening to this album today. Really enjoyed it, thanks for the recommendation!

The Doom 2016 and Eternal soundtracks are also dynamic. In-game events trigger motifs and stingers to play. This makes modern Doom a bit like Rez, which makes it even more awesome.

I've noticed the same happening in cyberpunk too. Really cool. Feels like you're in a movie. Unfortunately that means I never get that same feel when listening to the actual OST outside of the game.

Wonder how possible it would be to get something similar if you paired a sound engine with a health tracker/automation/ML model?

Am I exercising? Pump up the music, I need jamz! Am I at the store? Play inventory music.

BFG Division and The Only Thing They Fear Is You are always on repeat for me. I'm not even a big metal fan, but Mick's music was love at first sound for me. It truly blows my mind how scummy big name video game companies are. Hope Marty Stratton never works in this industry again and Mick wins the good fight.

Have you listened to music by Polyphia.

Yeah, Polyphia is pretty cool (I'm generally a fan of guitar wankery, so they're definitely up my alley).

Discussed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33532078

A famously litigation happy company not filing immediate legal action (starting with a cease and desist and then escalating) when accused of wrong doing in a very public and damaging way is all you need to know about who is in the wrong.

Im sure eventually someone at Microsoft will tell them enough and cut the man a nice settlement check in a couple of years. Right when discovery is allowed to go forward and all of Martys emails and communications are allowed to become public.

But their twitter post said they have all the evidence and you can't lie on the internet.

Yes, and in contrast to Mick, you know that they can’t be lying because while he presented the evidence he had, (which is a very one-sided thing to do), they are doing the very balanced thing of saying “we have the evidence and we are willing to disclose it in an appropriate venue” /s

> Im sure eventually someone at Microsoft will tell them enough and cut the man a nice settlement check in a couple of years.

If we could just skip all this non-sense and get to the check cutting part, that would be great. This happened well before the MS merger, so they can safely issue a mea culpa, say things have changed, cut a modest check and be done with this.

Or they can double down, drag this out over the next few years, pay 10-100x as much in legal and marketing related expenses, lose customer good will, impact sales, and generally be a drag on their productivity. All to, in the end, cut a modest check.

Sadly when it comes to videogames, customer good will means nothing and enough people still buy these games just for the FOMO.

My rule for reading these things is basically, is there anything in there that I couldn't have written for them before the release?

The answer in this case is no. I see nothing there that I couldn't have written. (And to be clear, I mean, me personally, from the exact position I am in right now, not a hypothetical me that works for them or has other knowledge.) Of course they're going to accuse him of lying and misrepresentation, they support their team, they have their own side of the story, they love to pieces everyone involved on their side who are the shining paragons of virtue that indeed we should all learn from and pattern our lives around and truly it would be a moral atrocity for the history books to sue or indeed even question them, etc.

So the information content of this is precisely zero.

From that you can't draw very much. Even if they had an iron-clad defense, they wouldn't necessarily have put it here for legal reasons, so I don't think you can conclude much at all.

All you really need to know is that one side of the dispute are a sociopathic corporation with a well earned reputation for flagrant lying. Flagrant even by the standards of sociopaths corporations. Bethesda's word against an artist is equivalent to Exxon's word against a climate scientist's. No trial needed, just issue a summary judgement against the corp. Seriously. I strain to even think of examples of corporations as dishonest as Bethesda, and I'm not even sure I managed it with Exxon.

Also, to add to that: They are really, really proud of the previous collaboration, and nobody from any side should get attacked in any case. Yeah.

Like: "We are still friends, and friends have their issues sometimes, you know?".

It appears that Microsoft's acquisition of Zenimax hasn't curbed the bad behavior of Bethesda at all, and in fact may have given them some sort of bravado that wasn't there before.

The audacity of responding to the saga of an article that was Mick Gordon's open letter, with a PR statement that is equal parts vague, aggressive, and couched in safetyist language is nearly unbelievable.

I hope Mick takes Bethesda to the cleaners. The audacity to post this after their original Reddit post and not giving a single shit about the abuse cannon they turned towards Mick is disgusting.

I normally live by the quote (abridged):

> If there is a hard, high wall and an egg that breaks against it, no matter how right the wall or how wrong the egg, I will stand on the side of the egg.

But in this case (after having read Mick’s account posted a few days ago here) it seems clear the “egg” was not even “wrong”.

That egg quote doesn't sound right. Is that how you meant to phrase it?

It’s the first part of this full quote [0] which I copied directly so it’s “correct” though I guess someone could argue that I’ve misinterpreted it?

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/140477-if-there-is-a-hard-h...

Very much doubt that'll happen. Most likely outcome is a settlement check and a very tepid statement to undo some small amount of the damage to Mick's reputation caused by Marty's statement.

> the abuse cannon they turned towards Mick

Wait, really? There were really redditors who sided with Bethesda/Zenimax instead of the artist? That's shockingly stupid, even for reddit. I know many subreddits are filled with corporate sycophants, but even so this is shocking to me. How clueless could a gamer be to think that Bethesda/Zenimax is honest and trustworthy? Reddit must induce brain damage.

The original reddit thread is pretty painful to read, commenters taking Bethesda/Zenimax almost 100% at face value. From Mick's blog post:

> I began receiving specific expressions of violence, the content so vivid it made me sick. The torrent of abuse telling me how to kill myself, how I’d be mutilated, how they would circulate photos of my body to traumatise my family, how my family would be murdered, how they’d hurt my animals, how they’d shoot up any event I attended, how I’d be raped to death, really started to wear me down in ways I couldn’t previously imagine.

I will never understand this. I will never understand people who go that far for something so minor. It wasn't even the game, the game sound was fine, hell they used double what they paid him for, it would appear all this anger is due to the OST not being good. A fucking soundtrack, some music, how do you get from "bad music" to "raped to death"? I don't get it.

That sort of people just enjoy abusing their fellow man, and are constantly on the lookout for excuses. Anything will do.

Marty still painted a big target on Mick's back.

I hadn't been paying much attention but I believe this occurred after Marty made his statement on Reddit but before Mick released his own.

If you're bored, go read some of the older comments from the Reddit post that Marty made two years ago.

I hope so as well. The language in his response from last week is has some strong language that really makes it feel as if it was written alongside legal counsel. With how long he's sat on this issue, I would imagine there has been quite a lot happening behind the scenes in that regard. Issuing that statement publicly feels like the first step towards litigation to me.

If Mick Gordon was wrong, Bethesda wouldn’t just be lying about it on Twitter, they would sue him for defamation.

So their failure to sue is ipso facto a confession that Mick Gordon is right.

I am pretty sure they do not want to blow this out of proportion, suing would achieve the opposite. I am not taking a stance on who's right or not, I'm just not seeing the lack of a lawsuit as an indication of anything.

A lawsuit opens them to discovery and that could be very bad.

Also the press and the people in general don’t like a “Goliath sues David” story.

Well if Gordon's statement is anything to go by, there are legal proceedings in action, but Id and Bethesda's lawyers are stalling and drawing it out. Meanwhile, Gordon lost a big chunk of his income and reputation because it not being resolved. He's kept quiet for two+ years because of that ongoing lawsuit.

Id and Bethesda need to resolve this. Pay the guy for the work he did and go separate ways amicably. That is all.

From what I read, legal proceedings were started by Mick after Marty's post went up.

Bethesda's lawyers could have gone to town the minute Mick posted his statement. Instead, they are continuing to stall and resorting to shouting on the intertubes, which indicates they know facts are not on their side.

They should probably also fire the guy who caused all of this. Seems the entire issue can be traced to one guy who screwed up project management, tried to make it Mick's problem and then refuses to take responsibility.

People like that are liable to cause further headaches down the road and aren't worth the hassle.

Zero interest in defending Bethesda, but that logic doesn’t hold. Unless you’re seeing their post as categorically ruling out legal action in the future, and therefore a confession? I didn’t get that from the text.

There are a lot of explanations for not having sued yet that don’t equate to a confession.

Maybe that is just corporate language, but the way this is worded („distortion of truth“, „selective presentation“) seems to suggest that the quite detailed post from Gordon is truthful in its key details and Bethesda seems to be claiming that there is additional context that warranted their executive‘s behaviour. Which is … an interesting perspective, to say at least.

This is why, as a freelancer, you _always_ negotiate for a time contract (getting paid for hours - not even for chunks of work) and upfront payment. Expecting to get paid for work that may or may not get approved is almost asking to get in trouble. (Almost - of course, I'm not blaming Mike for signing an unfair contract, I hope he wins this.)

A big company already has enormous power over a lone person, no need to give them more. If ID didn't crank their assholeness up to 11 and try to publicly smear Mike, Mike would surely lose this in court.

The standard for game music contractors is to get paid for minutes of music which are used in the game or in promotional material. Rejected material should not be used at all, which is one of the main issues here (id used more than double the amount of music that they accepted and paid for).

Mick had been a contractor for Bethesda previously and hadn't experienced these issues, so I don't think it's fair to blame him for approaching a new project in good faith.

From his essay, it seems that Marty Stratton was the main actor in all the issues. The rest of id and Bethesda seem to have acted reasonably, only circling the wagons when legal got involved.

It seems the main issue in the development process was they did not timely and adequately provide Mick with the content of the game levels so he could create music that matched the context/theme. He was often forced to make music purely on speculation, a lot of which got "dropped" (but then included without paying him). And apparently the developer can continually request revisions, unconditionally, until they get the desired product they want. This sounds like a system skewed toward the developer and ripe for abuse.

If Mick's account is to be believed then he has definitely been treated poorly and Marty sounds like the client from hell (and summoning an internet mob is awful behaviour). However, I couldn't help feel when reading it that he was consistently naive in not looking out for himself, which is surprising for someone with experience.

He had already worked with the same company, already experienced pay issues, already knew the planned deliverables were nonsensical, worked months without pay, took on additional project without a contract, then signed a contract without reviewing it with a professional, didn't escalate to higher powers sooner, etc. None of this is easy and can cause stress, but they're standard problems that all freelancers have to deal with. Part of being a freelancer is getting paid more to deal with these bad bits. It's not for everyone, including me.

> he was consistently naive in not looking out for himself, which is surprising for someone with experience

He was obviously very keen to continue being associated with the franchise, either out of love or professional interest. Waiting 2 years in silence while a counterpart slandered him on the web and lawyers played hide and seek, shows a lot of patience; continuing to propose to work on the OST project, even after all this, seems to indicate he really cared about it.

Love can blind us all.

I'd imagine it is pretty hard to walk away from the contract that's the followup to the work that gave you the biggest publicity boost of your career.

Here’s the text from the image in their post, as transcribed by my phone anyways:

>>>

The recent post by Mick Gordon both mischaracterized and misrepresented the team at id Software, the development of DOOM Eternal, Marty Stratton, and Chad Mossholder with a one-sided and unjust account of an irreparable professional relationship.

We are aware of all the details and history in this matter and unequivocally support Marty, Chad, and the team at id Software. We reject the distortion of the truth and selective presentation of incomplete "facts." We stand ready with full and complete documented evidence to disclose in an appropriate venue as needed.

The statements posted online have incited harassment and threats of violence against Marty, Chad, and the id Software team. Any threats or harassment directed towards members of our teams will be met with swift and appropriate action to protect their health and safety.

We remain incredibly proud of id's previous collaborations with Mick Gordon and ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on his account and, more importantly, from attacking any of the individuals mentioned on either side, including Marty, Chad, or Mick.

This may be the first time I ever boycott something. No way what Mick wrote was a lie, it would have to be so specially crafted - and for what? There's no money at stake here, he's literally just trying to save his reputation.

I think Mick's story resonates with a lot of us who've been used this way. I hope this story gets picked up in the larger media circles because that's the only way Bethesda will step off. I've seen it in the "gamer media" (Kotaku, etc) on Google News but the headlines were not very attention grabbing.

I've been boycotting them since they sued notch.

(back when notch was a nice dude)

This is not how a company would respond to allegations that were demonstrably incorrect.

I mean there's a lawsuit going on but they (their lawyers) have been dragging their heels about it. That's where it should be fought out, but they're using this technique to wear Gordon out - mentally, financially - so they don't have to deal with the fallout. Fallout which would mean they pay him in full, plus interest, plus damages, plus a public apology and a setting-the-record-straight statement, etc.

they publicly defamed him on reddit two years ago, with claim that mick has already shown to be demonstratably false. this is even more doubling down. They've been trying to wear him down literally for years, all of this now is gordon putting some sunshine on bethesda's stunningly unethical behaviour.

The best way to win an unwinnable legal case- if money is not an issue, is via attrition. They're wearing Gordon out financially by dragging out the legal case. Both the legal case and the public statements are part of the attack.

I thought it was just a negotiation, not a lawsuit. In an actual lawsuit there would be time limits to prevent these stalling tactics.

The sad thing is that Mick and most of his supporters have gone out of their way to not attack Chad or to attach blame to him. It’s pretty disappointing that this statement, beyond completely dismissing Mick’s concerns, makes Mick come off as a fraudulent, vexatious accuser who directly harmed Chad.

Its standard PR playbook at this point. Activate some accounts to harrass your client so now they are the victim instead.

Well that's disappointing.

Surely they're going to show some kind of proof that what he said is false, right? Because Mick did his homework and provided a LOT of dated receipts that disprove what Marty said in his reddit post.

This whole saga has been a real eye opener and should be the textbook example for why you need to document everything and always CYA.

Their use of alt text leaves a little to be desired:

"An image with a message from Bethesda software"

Technically correct, yes.

Well, the image doesn't contain that much more content

>The recent post by Mick Gordon both mischaracterized and misrepresented the team at id Software, the development of DOOM Eternal, Marty Stratton, and Chad Mossholder with a one-sided and unjust account of an irreparable professional relationship.

>We are aware of all the details and history in this matter and unequivocally support Marty, Chad, and the team at id Software. We reject the distortion of the truth and selective presentation of incomplete "facts." We stand ready with full and complete documented evidence to disclose in an appropriate venue as needed.

>The statements posted online have incited harassment and threats of violence against Marty, Chad, and the id Software team. Any threats or harassment directed towards members of our teams will be met with swift and appropriate action to protect their health and safety.

>We remain incredibly proud of id’s previous collaborations with Mick Gordon and ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on his account and, more importantly, from attacking any of the individuals mentioned on either side, including Marty, Chad, or Mick.

Off-topic, the typographic text justification (space between the letters varying on each line) looks awful.

The part of Mick's (exhaustive) post where he notes that he has only seen his awards through glass, at a distance, once, at id's office broke my heart.

It reflects poorly on the management--the actual people who are in management, not the vague "corporation"--when they treat their contractors this way. If Mick won the award, Mick gets the award. To do anything else is the behavior of a person of very low character.

If Bethesda had any legs to stand on, they would keep quiet and file a suit against Mick. Bethesda is stating this in the open, showing they don't have an actual counter to Mick's claims except: 'no, you.'

Why even respond publicly if that's what you're going to say? I guess it probably convinced someone. But it's not very convincing and it keeps the story in the news.

I'm unfamiliar with this story. Can anyone provide some background, or, a link to more information?

Mick published his take on Medium: https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-d...

Here's a link. I think it seems alright, 30 sec googlefu.

https://www.shacknews.com/article/133044/mick-gordon-stateme...

This is an answer to Mick Gordon's statement regarding his work on Doom Eternal.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33532078 for his his statement and HN discussion.

The long and short of it is that Bethesda did serious fucky shit with Mick Gordon's work for Doom Eternal, including but not limited to: using twice the music that they paid for, using his name on an OST without a contract in place first (it's a separate contract with new terms), and having some audio engineer rip the audio from the game - badly - and turn that into the OST instead.

The thing with the OST was due to legal reasons - they promised an OST with the special edition, so they had to publish... something. Normally they'd offer Gordon a contract for it who would then recompose the (dynamic) in-game music to listenable album tracks. I think they did in the end, but only after announcing it, pressuring him to start working on it before there was a contract because of legal reasons and it would be his name on the chopping board if they failed to deliver, AND having an audio engineer work on it for six months (Gordon had one) independently.

Marty (id person) posted this (1) two years ago putting all the blame on Mick. Mick posted his rebuttal last week on medium, unlike Marty's post his contained screenshots (2).

The two year delay is probably lawyer related?

(1) https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/gdg25y/doom_eternal_o...

(2) https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-d...

Mick brings receipts, Bethesda gets on twitter and says NO U. Pathetic.

Just pay the man and apologize. It's a drop in the bucket in comparison to the rightfully earned bad reputation.

I would be looking a lot closer at how Bethesda is operating, this sounds like another Blizzard frat house that uses their positions to abuse people.

As a fan of Doom and several-times attended Quakecon (including the 2018 Doom Eternal walkthrough) it really, really sucks to hear people you thought were really enthusiastic decent people turn out to be shithead executives that are a dime a dozen.

I'm sorry for Mick and embarrassed for Doom.

Wikipedia deleted the page for Marty Stratton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletio...

Bethesda better have some absolutely damning receipts to go after one dude like this.

If it's standard, "we buried a clause in a contract" corporate concerns, Bethesda is going to come out looking like a bully and a villain here.

I don’t think they have even that.

> selective presentation of incomplete "facts"

Is that Bethesda admitting they only sent the contract for the OST a few weeks prior to release?

As well as doing pre-orders and attaching his name to the OST way before any mention of said OST to Mitch?

Sorry Bethesda, Mick had the receipts.

Not a good look for Bethesda.

tl;dr: Nuh-uh!

Bethesda's statement doesn't provide any new information, address any specific claims made by Mick, or clarify anything really. I don't know why they bothered posting it.

the tweet's gone or it's just for me?

It's still there, it's you

weird, now it's loading... Well, let's just say it was a Twitter bug

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