EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports
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https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.
Or at least made it so the writes are spread out over the 64GB replacement resulting in 8x longevity.
Tesla, pre Model 3, had real issues that went beyond panel gaps. Modern Tesla is doing much better, but they're competing against established players who differentiate through great interiors and "the little details".
Large portions of this customer segment are willing to trade long term reliability for perceived build quality and overall luxury. Tesla's value proposition, which is great performance and long term reliability at the expense of panel gap size and cheap leather, simply doesn't fit their expectations.
Are you aware that Tesla's MCU bricks itself after a few years due to eMMC wear? They also dragged their feet before finally caving in and agreeing to a recall. I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable long-term. The older models have proven themselves to be not reliable, and the new models are too new for these issues due to poor design to surface.
On the model S in the show room, the boot looked like they had painted over a number of bugs.
One door was higher than the other. The panel gap around the driver door was massive.
I have a 2006 kia rio, which has better paint work, and better panel gaps than a tesla, and costs £1800.
I really wanted to like the tesla as I could have got a good deal, but if it didn't fit together, then what else has crappy tolerances? is the NCAP performance rigged? will it actually survive a crash?
edit stuff like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ
I don't think we'll ever be forced into buying these ridiculous computers with cars attached.
My current manufacturer of choice is Honda, but I'm sure they'll end up adding this cruft at some point to their future cars, too.
That's one thing I like with my Up!. The infotainment system is a simple phone holder with USB to power it.
Seems pragmatic to me to care about it.
This is your statement.
They "don't even matter". It's not pragmatic to care about panel gaps. It doesn't matter.
That is what you are stating, that isn't me misquoting or being malicious, they're your words!
If you meant to instead say "There are diminishing returns to reduce panel gap size, and Tesla have got it right!", then I agree with the first statement, disagree with the second, but best of all it clarifies your point. Cheers!
“They don’t matter” as in “the returns on decreasing the panel gap from the 1st percentile of panel gaps on the market to the 99th percentile are so small, spending energy on thinking about it is probably more expensive. It is a cosmetic issue.”
panel gaps are a sign of quality. Why are there gaps? at best the door hinges are not aligned properly, at worse the whole chassis is warped. Does the door close properly, as in seat where it's designed to? will that cause paint damage? when the temperature changes and the doors shift, will that make the windows fail to close properly?
If the doors are not aligned properly, does that mean that if there is a crash, the points where the load is supposed to be dissipated are missed?
Does that mean that its easier to break into? can I just get a slimjim down the inside and hoik out valuables.
If this was a budget car, that was engineered to a price so that _everyone_ can afford it, then yes, I'd let tesla off. its not a big problem. But its not, Telsa are supposedly a luxury car maker.
It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard.
E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving.
Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto", which half the time will engage A/C because it's over desired temp by a small amount.
Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console. Radio stations? 2+ menus, minimum two if you set up a hotkey bar on the bottom of the tablet.
Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it.
As mentioned below, the glove box itself is two menus deep.
I find my wife has a mental thermostat model where she expects the heat to turn off if she dials down the climate control, but that just turns on AC full blast.
I'd pay 5k more to have buttons and dials. I love the car for its drive, but really hate the interior interfaces. This model of "Bolt an ipad to the dash" needs to die.
Wow, that's horrible! While I set my mirrors initially while parked, I often find the need to make fine adjustments while driving (in low-stress situations).
Having to use a 3-layer-deep menu for that —on the center console, no less— is just a complete dealbreaker.
Thank you for posting that! Makes my decision tree easier and another key item to check in evaluating new cars.
EDIT: "fine adjustments" => "fine"
I have come to appreciate my Model Y's interface for its uniformity. I do love a well designed physical interface, but what you get in most other cars is a total mishmash of control schemes and design languages that change make to make, model to model, and button to button.
To open the glove box requires 2 screen presses or activating the voice controls. On the one hand it's an uncommonly used feature, I think I've opened mine once this year. On the other hand it's rather silly that there isn't a button or sensor to allow you to open it physically.
Consider that my Model 3 has a sensor that detects if I close the center console improperly and displays a message on screen, same with the frunk. I would gladly replace one of those sensors for one that detects me groping the glovebox door.
I believe if the car is unlocked, then the screen can be used to open the glove box. If the car isn't unlocked, then you broke in and prying open the glove box isn't beyond what you're willing to do.
That's an interesting way to think about it. I own a Y and have rented a 3 after owning it for more than a year. Even in that situation, the rental was less good than ownership. The rental didn't have app access, so I had to use a keycard. That made locking/unlocking much more awkward. I also couldn't precondition from the app.
It was still a great car, but it felt nothing like the day to day experience of owning one.
20 years ago I was taught that mirrors should have already been adjusted by the time you turn the key. Has this changed? Why would you ever need to adjust the mirrors while driving?
> it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto",
No it doesn't
> Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console
It's over click. It's still awful because you have to look at the screen, but it's still only 1 click. There is no reason to lie, it's still terrible.
> Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it.
Unless you display is overlapping the glove box somehow, this is not the case.
I find it hard to get a really good setting on my mirrors unless I'm driving (I do at least only mess with it on slow roads with no one around).
Also, you can put the seat warmer icon on the bottom bar, so its just one tap to toggle off/levels 1-3/auto.
I'm not sure what you mean about the map. Every car that I've used has that to the right in a similar position. The tesla layout seems fine to me.
The glovebox is my biggest annoyance, in general. I wish there was a button somewhere.
And Tesla yokes fall apart, who doesn't care about that ?
But yeah, bad infotainment can make car feel very old, in the "what the fuck I spent my money on, my ancient phone is faster!" way. Especially when you save few bucks putting essential controls on touch screen instead of a knob
It's pervasive across the whole company. Remember when Elon was complaining about the lack of car carrier trailers, and making plans to build his own? Tesla was the only company with that problem.
I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.
> Tesla's electric cars may look like the future, but once again, feedback from owners reveal the brand's disappointing dependability.
> 39% of Tesla owners we heard from with a car aged up to four years old had at least one issue they needed to get repaired in the past year, which is twice as high as the average fault rate for cars this new.
> The most common issues are, somewhat unusually, to do with the exterior and are mostly minor. Those that experienced faults with the exterior (19% of all owners) or non-engine electrics (21% of all owners) most frequently complained about paintwork issues and problems with lights respectively.
> Slightly less common were issues with rainwater seals, meaning water can leak into the car. It's rare for a brand to have such issues in such numbers on its new cars, and indicates a general low level of quality with the finish of Tesla's vehicles.
> While the fault rate is high, the breakdown rate (or cars failing to start) is in line with the average for cars in the 0-4 year group at 4.9%.
Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date?
AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
0: https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and...
Eh, Model S was high-end but wouldn't call it luxury. Lots of regular people with a decent income bought it. Interior wasn't up to "luxury" standards.
My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all.
Dual incomes make this a weak metric. The Model 3 also retails for the same price as the BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E class.
A car that costs 4x the price of "normal car" is a luxury for my taste.
And Model 3 is the least expensive Tesla car.
Nissan Leaf few years ago looked more like B-segment (subcompact - like e.g. Honda Fit) but now I see it is actually a compact (C-segment).
Aren't EVs in generally really still luxury (or at least high middle tier) brands? Are there EV equivalents of a Civic?
I get the impression that, for first-world markets, "EV" is synonomous with "Tesla" and that irks me. It's just a different drivetrain, but somehow the focus groups have decided that all EVs have to have the same de-featured tablet-on-wheels look. I'm generalizing here, but I agree with the sentiment behind your question. I wish there were more traditionally designed cars with EV drivetrains becuase when I drive this one into the ground I sure hope there's something similar to replace it with.
Honda Civic base in USA is $24.6k.
The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs.
My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place.
And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.
A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process.
I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?
I don’t think I’ve really seen many criticisms of commonly available parts used in Tesla cars. The one big one that comes to mind would be the eMMC recall which, similar to what I said above, Tesla figured out after years of heavy writes to the component. It’s something that could have been avoided had there been some centralized group to give best practices for automotive or industrial development but that just doesn’t really exist.
I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me.
You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too.
Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood.
The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.
1. If the glovebox fails for any reason, there’s no workaround and it goes to closed. (I don’t know whether it’s true there’s no workaround, but that’s what we’ve got suggested here). This would be akin to the window failing, and reverting to full-open position with no way to physically pull it, or convince it to stay in current position.
2. If the infotainment system fails, the glovebox is taken out with it. Because of 1, the glovebox is taken out 100% — not just the convenient infotainment style of usage. This would be akin to, well, the same. The death of the infotainment system is the death of your windows.
3. There could also be the reverse dependency, not in play here (afaik) — the death of the glovebox mechanic may equate to the death of your infotainment system.
That is, the question isn’t whether the individual component is reliable in and of itself (which is less a statement about Tesla and more of their suppliers), but whether they’ve tied things together such that one failure creates a cascading effect — and done so unnecessarily. And in such scenarios, whether backup strategies exist.. (your tire shouldn’t blow, but if it does… there’s an extra tire in your trunk and shitty-but-enough tools to get by). And as I understand it, Tesla has produced a masterpiece of unnecessarily coupled components, particularly around the UX.
So it’s not surprise to me that they see higher UX failure rates — they seem to design the car intentionally to have no degraded experience allowed; either everything works, or nothing does
They use the fact that they are electronic to add gimmicks.
The only reason they ask for your papers is because it's an easy ticket to write or pretext for fishing if you don't have them. They look up your info based on the plate regardless.
Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change.
It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).
I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break.
If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.
The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics.
>Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars.
This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).
> All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because:
> The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance
> - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance
> - Brake wear is significantly reduced due to regenerative braking
> - There are far fewer moving parts relative to a conventional fuel engine.
Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures.
An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
(Minivans often mount the spare in weird places around the undercarriage, not anywhere obvious...)
My car was towed to a Tesla service center and I had to pay like $400 for a new tire. Then I had to rent another car to go pick mine up a couple days later. I was ready to set the damn thing on fire by the end of it.
The lack of a spare tire isn't exclusive to EV's though. Most don't include a spare anymore.
Modern sports cars are 18-20" and the spare tire is a big cargo compromise.
They give you a fix it kit and some good wishes
edit: I suspect it's something to do with tire size as you say, but also brakes. Can't fit a donut with what's on the hub
For > $40k I would've liked they throw in a real spare wheel/tire lol
Probably just weight/cost
The massive wheels on modern cars are so big and heavy the suspension designs have had to be redone to handle them.. they add lots of unsprung weight, which makes everything harder.
Giant wheels for performance is mostly marketing. So much so that race cars held onto smaller wheels for a very long time. F1 only recently changed to big giant wheels, and the engineering teams were not happy about it, the change was marketing driven to make the F1 cars look more like street cars.
In Europe, the automakers are really getting card into Emission bands by the smallest possible margins, and as this effects tax buyers do care.
For EVs it's range - buyers pay a lot of attention to the headline range figures and a spare wheel plus the tire is not going to help.
Spares are expensive, heavy, take up space, and nobody buys vehicles based on their inclusion. A vehicle without them gets better fuel mileage, has more space, and costs less.
I wouldn't travel outside a major metro, or on a weekend, without a spare; phone service gets sketchy when rural & the likelihood for monetary abuse by rando Roadside Service providers is likely to be very abusive, as I have experienced 1st hand. I always have a spare tire, jack, plug kit & air pump in my vehicles.
I do travel much, 20-30k miles a year, so I likely experience more issues than average... was zip-tying my shift linkage after a rock bounced up and broke it a couple months back.
≠ SQL Error [42601]: ERROR: syntax error at or near "≠"It only matters if you're doing a TCO comparison that's time constrained to the first 100-150k where nothing expensive happens anyway. The difference between 2 vs 3 brake jobs or pad slaps vs pad slaps and rotors in that time will dominate the cost.
Overall, planned maintenance is significantly less on my Tesla than on my gas cars. It's a pretty easy car to own and drive. As others have pointed out, build quality isn't the greatest - at least not commensurate with the price. Now that other options are available, I think it's pretty hard to recommend Tesla, but I wouldn't call it a bad car. It's better than most out there despite its flaws.
Without a doubt, EV is better than gas in most situations. They are just easier, drive better, lower cost to operate, etc. I'm not buying what this article is selling.
A quick google search shows that average age of a car in USA is ~12 years... oldtimers and crashed newish cars skew that number away from the median, but generally batteries will lose capacity way sooner than that, and replacement is currently either very expensive or even impossible in some models.
We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us.
I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.
"Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol...
> "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles."
It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla:
> "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports."
My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.
I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k.
Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
Another problem is that the EV conversion adds a lot to the price. Then at the dealership, customers see an expensive Focus EV sitting next to a less expensive ICEV Focus and they tend to choose the less expensive option.
A 2018 Fiat 500e (electric, with a tiny battery bank good for only ~90 miles) weighs almost 3000 pounds, whereas the same car with ICE is ~2400lb.
So yes, electric is a lot heavier. And that Fiat battery bank is mostly too small to be practical (had two of these on lease, gone now) so a a larger bank with usable range is even heavier.
You could in theory put batteries in the Engine compartment and Boot, but i think beyond DIYers this is unpopular because of the handling effects, loss of luggage space and, I assume, safety in a crash.
The BMW i3 is I think the best example of what type of small car could be converted to an EV. It would have to be a small vehicle with large wheelbase, with small wheels pushed to the corners to make maximum space for battery modules. It would convert a small hatchback into a crossover once the height was increased so the battery pack wasn't too low the ground or taking up leg room.
I can think of two vehicles where an automaker tried, and didn't increase the height much the car is recognizably the same - the VW e-Up and Smart ForTwo Electric - which I think are both bad range wise.
Times when the automakers also increased the height would be the Peugeot e-208 and Opel Corsa-e (same underlying car) and Mini Electric - but I think there was a lot of planning ahead in those designs to have platforms that could be EVs rather than retrofit of existing platform.
And the car is responsive and fun to drive.
The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit:
- Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%.
- This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.
Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.
If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter.
If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.
That thing isn't a car - it's an IoT "thing" with wheels and a battery. And anybody who watches InternetOfShit with any regularity realizes that when there's mothership control, disablement and abandonment isn't far behind.
Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional.
> If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.
- failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner...
- still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV...
I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner.
It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally.
No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.
But at the end of the day if the car is in the shop, it's in the shop. Regardless of reason.
I've had Fiat 500e EVs and they spent more time at the dealer for repairs than any other car I've had in almost 40 years. No, it wasn't for electric motor drivetrain repair but that's no consolation, I still didn't have a car to drive for those weeks.
(Well I have other cars, but had it been my only car, I'd have been stranded.)
I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled.
Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.
On the body, they may cause corrosion perforations and cause your vehicle to fail inspection. They may flake or peel and require expensive repainting. On structurally significant parts, a coating failure can do this:
http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFo...
Paint fails:
- parts rust
- parts eventually fail
- vehicle might bend in two or stop working altoghether
- rust is slow, easily detectable by a mechanic. Takes months or years to do real damage
Engine fails:
- car won't go
My point is that none of these categories can be entirely written off superficial.
I'd bet its the minority that would have a functional impact.
“Braking system issues” sound bad, but a common complaint is brake noise.
“Transmission issues” could be hard shifts.
“Engine problems” could be a squeaky belt or tensioner.
CR is probably not what you want to read if you’re an enthusiast, but if you’re suggesting a car for your mom, it’s probably pretty dang accurate.
Ultimately I think it takes a new company a few tries and building a few factories to learn how to mass produce cars with satisfactory quality of these "details". Berlin is also good afaik and I expect the same of Tesla's next production lines.
Door handles failing to open doors, door handles failing to present, clicking and jerking when steering far to the right or left, dashboard and infotainment turning off completely, poor seals causing the "wub wub" air pressure effect at highway speeds, charge port failures, a poorly seated and rusty windshield attachment, and a ton of fit and finish issues.
Service centers were impossible to get time at, and they charged an arm and a leg to fix a problem only to have it come back a few months later.
Tesla build quality is exceptionally poor.
Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine.
Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.
"Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fi...
- EVs could drive in the bus lane, thus those who got EVs could cut commute drastically in many cases.
- EVs paid no or little road toll, and people have an irrational reaction to that.
- Due to massive increase in property prices over the last decade or so, many were in a very comfortable position w.r.t. loan and could afford a somewhat expensive car.
- Until the end of the year, you don't pay 25% VAT on EVs when buying new. In addition, new EVs don't pay the "engine tax"[1], which can be substantial.
For a semi-random example of the taxes, looking at a BMW M440i Grand Coupe xDrive, if I were to import it, the roughly $60k sales price[2] would get[3] a $31k "engine tax" and $15k VAT for a total of $107k. This matches the local dealer price very well. For the same kind of money you can get a Tesla Model S Plaid for example, or pay a lot less for one of their other models.
[1]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/business-and-organisation/vat...
[2]: https://www.truecar.com/best-cars-trucks/sedans/luxury/
[3]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/duties/cars-and-other-...
Road salt wouldn't be enough to cause this issue, as the batteries are pretty well sealed and the low voltage battery is well outside of the elements under normal operation.
When abundance is over, we will finally make less cars.
While demand for electric vehicles has surged in last two years, new data from Consumer Reports finding that EVs are among the least reliable cars in the auto industry. Pras Subramanian here with the details and Pras, clearly something that the auto industry doesn't necessarily want to hear.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah, you know, I was a little surprised to hear that. Because EVs, generally speaking, are simpler or easy to operate than a regular gas powered car. But I'm not surprised to hear about Tesla's issues with reliability here. So they found that owners of the Consumer Reports survey that they surveyed a bunch of their users and on all different models and all different makes of the cars.
And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car. Still, Tesla still rose four spots to 19th overall, which isn't that great, but at least it did climb with the rankings.
For non-Tesla EVs, there was issues with charging and batteries and also the motors. So that doesn't sound good, so that's kind of a little black market there for EVs. Overall, pickup trucks were bad overall in terms of the gas powered cars. Looking at the overall picture, we just saw that list up there, Toyota and Lexus retain the top spot. They've been there for a while now, very reliable cars.
BMW, number three. I was really surprised to see that. Kind of speaks to what they're doing with the brand and improving reliability and that better kind of first interaction with the car, followed by Mazda and Honda. So seven of the top 10 brands here were actually Asian companies. So this rounds out the top 5 here with Mazda and Honda at that 4 and 5.
- Interesting. All right, most reliable EVs also compiled. Who came out on top? Anything surprised you here?
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Most reliable EVs?
- Hybrids.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah. Yeah, so it turns out hybrids are actually very, very reliable. Talking about plug-in hybrids, think the Priuses of the world, things like that. So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah.
- 38 miles per gallon.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: With the hybrid, yeah. It's actually a smooth car, really good fit and finish. And lastly, the Toyota Corolla. You can't go wrong here, not surprising from Toyota. They make the Prius, as you mentioned. This car gets 48 MPG.
- Boy, that is some astounding numbers. Reliability is what those cars are all about. Pras Subramanian, our senior autos reporter. Good to see you, sir. Thank you.
Report:
https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...
I'm also a little skeptical because we own two and have had zero problems, but of course small sample sizes and all that. (2013 Nissan Leaf and 2022 Nissan Leaf though, and Nissan tends to build indestructible tanks. I've owned ICE Nissans too. Had one survive a front wheel collision with a curb at 50mph with <$1000 in damage.)
That being said I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that an entirely new drive train technology has teething issues. It's a pretty major departure from ICE drive trains. Manufacturing a complex item like a car at scale is extremely challenging.
It also looks like Tesla's famous build quality issues are sinking the category to some extent. Tesla's drive train seems solid but the rest of the car... it's like the most technologically advanced drive train platform with a 1990s Kia on top.
The other factor might be that it's basically a Nissan Versa with an EV drive train. The majority of the car is not different from their other cars, which I consider a feature because almost everything but the EV drive train uses standard parts and can be fixed by any mechanic. It basically just has a battery where the gas tank is and a motor that pretends to be an engine to the other hardware in the vehicle. (I read somewhere that this is almost literally true if you dip into its CANbus traffic.)
It's also a little bit hackable:
https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages
I haven't done anything but I have a friend who's really into car hacking. Have chatted with him about maybe doing a side business upgrading these from CHADEMO to CCS. There are projects for doing that on GitHub with parts lists and code.
What's really surprising about the Ford Maverick rated so highly is not really that it's a brand new vehicle from Ford, but that it was engineered to be the least expensive truck possible.
So the Maverick is popular not because of any great quality it has. But because there is a massive hole in the market. Reviews I have seen show it as fairly mediocre and generally less capable than previous cheap trucks.
My benchmark with affordable trucks will be past models like the S-10 and Ranger. Those were small, light on options but still trucks with proper frames and a rwd drivetrain.
Modern expensive trucks are amazing, but that is also part of why they are expensive. You are being tricked into thinking the cost is 100% due to the fancy add-ons. It isn't. And when Toyota comes out with their small unibody truck (2024 or 2025), reviewers will gush and swoon over it. And most of those reviewer complaints about the Maverick being mediocre will fade away (or at least "not apply" to the Toyota version). At these prices, you don't get to do what an F150 or Silverado or Tundra does.
Ford kicked off the Maverick project with the goal of low sticker price AND the expectation of low sales volume.
To cut the sticker price they reused a bunch of proven tech from the Focus/Escape/Transit Connect parts bin rather than the half baked New Hotness(TM). In order to recoup engineering costs despite low volume they were forced there was little room in the engineering man-hours budget for the automotive equivalent of "trendy JS framework of the month to the detriment of everything he works on" and other "pad my resume and/or hit my KPIs to the detriment of the product" behavior that plagues BigCo engineering projects.
Basically they were forced to attack it like they were building an Escape (an already reliable and well liked vehicle) with a bed and facelift, not a new vehicle and that path offers a lot less opportunity to build bloated trash than the "develop a new vehicle" path does.
This article seems to say EVs have a lot of variation in reliability, and the more expensive ones aren't better. Doesn't that suggest the tech itself is fine, if there are low end ones that are reliable?
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-...