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Comment by csomar | Hacker News Reader

> Regarding the language. The only thing you’re going to hear as a response to that entitlement: “this is Germany, we do this the German way”. I’m not German, just fyi… you know, when I arrived in the UK in 2006, I didn’t expect that everyone will explain to me things in Polish. I actually had to learn the language.

I think his point is, English is the lingua-franca of the internet and international business. If you are looking to accept international founders, investors and money, maybe it's a good idea to add EN i18n.

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> maybe it's a good idea to add EN i18n.

Unless you’re looking for a country to change it’s official language to English I think this is a wrong direction. The law is in German, it’s interpreted in German, if there’s some misunderstanding or a mistake in filings it will be heard in court in German. It’s better to set expectations early. All legal processes are held in country’s native language. It is better to NOT provide “official” i18n of the process of starting the company, which unless you’re then willing to support the whole process in this foreign language. How do you also then make sure that the English translation is fully legally equivalent to the German version?

I agree, however Estonia does provide EN option to boost their venture economy.

Irish company tax is lower than Estonia and the process equally simple. Estonia, like Portugal, does one thing very right and its PR. But once you scratch the surface there are much better options out there to have a company or to live in.

I am genuinely interested in good places to live where:

- it is not cold, if possible - the tax rate is low (even if I have to pay services later myself but with my own choice) - the hospitals and school system are good, even if private - it is not difficult/expensive to open a business

I am all ears :)

A few ideas:

Singapore: probably meets all of your requirements. Low tax, easy to open a business, lots of private schools. No idea how to rate the hospitals, it has a couple in the best hospital lists in the world, but I don't trust those. Drawback is everything is expensive.

Andorra: not cold for Northern European standards. Low tax, a couple of international schools, private medicine, you should be able to access the private medical system in Spain. A few inconveniences are no train, no airport (closest are Barcelona and Toulouse), custom inspections into France or Spain, generally isolated feeling and tourist centered feeling.

Portugal: Warm and friendly people with good food. I don't know anything about the schools or medical system. Bureaucracy probably isn't great. Low tax for a couple of years. Unfortunately local citizens do not benefit it so a foreigner taking advantage of it is likely displacing a local. Feels very unfair.

Puerto Rico: not cold, no US federal taxes. If you are a US citizen and non-resident and move there, there are some other tax benefits, but people who were already residents can't take advantage of it. Lots of infrastructure problems.

Yes, I am currently in Vietnam and was thinking of making the move to Singapore. I worked there before. I do not think the food was that expensive. I can eat cheaper in Singapore than in Europe IMHO.

From the list Puerto Rico looks to me like the new idea. I was considering the others, yes. But Andorra is cold as hell and boring :( Portugal's bureaucracy approaches that of Spain, but Spain is getting sooo bad IMHO that some day Portugal could be better, if it is not already.

Thanks for the ideas!

Good point, Singapore has great, inexpensive food. Housing is where you spend the big $$$. Singapore is probably at the top of the list for the low tax countries. The big breaker for me is the lack of four distinct seasons, but all the other low tax countries have bigger negatives.

A few other low tax places to consider that I don't know much about: Belize, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia.

For me the seasons stuff is not bad. I prefer hot to cold weather (but not Dubai/Qatar level!).

As for the negative points... did you listen to their english? lol.

Monaco or Dubai. Can't really get better than 0% income tax.

Monaco is 0%? Interesting... must be expensive as hell I think.

And Dubai? Yes, it is not too cold there, hahaha.

Generally in this case, the law would refer to a German contract, not a translated one, and there is no need for the two to be 'legally equivalent'.

But the process should be clear for all those who take part and so much stuff in Germany is not even clear to native speakers, and I don't even mean legal contracts, just objects and instructions on stuff you buy at the hardware store.

> But the process should be clear for all those who take part and so much stuff in Germany is not even clear to native speakers, and I don't even mean legal contracts

Is it that much different in English speaking countries? There’s a reason why whenever a legal matter pops up people say “consult a lawyer”.

In Germany all proceedings will be held in German. But you can represent yourself everywhere without speaking German assuming that you have a sworn translator with you. That will cost you probably around €200/hour.

Having started three companies in the UK, I have never required a lawyer nor have I advised many of the people who've asked about to get one. The process is extremely straightforward and fast, which obviously helps in making it easy to understand. Currently thinking about starting a company in Germany but the bureaucracy here feels bloated and protectionist rather than lean and facilitating. Like a massive overpriced American Ivy League university. If a company is so hard to start for people who don't know how to start a company, it's not exactly encouraging people to take a risk on a cool idea they have, is it?

Complex entry processes favour incumbents, it sucks.

You can entirely start a UG without ever seeing a lawyer and the fees are low, as long as you stick to the standard contracts available. You have to see a notary, though. A lawyer is important if you want to have complicated arrangements between the shareholders - they would essentially write your company charter.

The complicated part about having a limited liability company is that it requires double accounting and strict separation between your personal and the company property and that your books must be testified by an accountant. So you’ll need a tax accountant.

Minor note: having formed a British Ltd, I can tell you that some things are much more confusing for foreigners than you might expect. And some are outright hilariously bad. I could not negotiate a health insurance for our British employees since the insurance folks are not allowed to talk to foreigners - something something personal data something. Yes, I tried multiple companies.

The personal data rules in the UK are essentially the same as those in the EU, but with a huge exemption for "insurance purposes". So it's unlikely that there is a systematic data protection roadblock in the UK that you wouldn't encounter elsewhere in Europe. I can't think what rule you're referring to, so I suspect there was a misunderstanding, perhaps unique either to the company/broker you were dealing with, or unique to you.

I tried multiple companies, and I’m a pretty normal German resident. They all said they’re not allowed to talk about insurance matters with people not residing in the UK. So we basically ended up having a UK person relay all communication, since that is apparently fine.

> Currently thinking about starting a company in Germany

I would advise against doing it. You will regret it at every step of the way. Save yourself a million headaches (and euros) and go to Ireland or some other EU country with more respect for entrepreneurs. In Germany you'll just end up feeding the entire endless bureaucracy network that is set up to thrive on the work of other people. Among those being:

- lawyers

- notaries

- tax consultants (this is a big one)

- IHK (useless mandatory organization that takes a piece of your cake)

- Radio and TV tax (they require a tax based on the number of locations or cars that your company operates)

Well, trying to figure out a way around it, which might be to simply run the whole thing from the UK. I'm kinda stuck with Germany, alas.

There is precedence - all EU laws are in all EU languages.

He looked into opening a GmbH, not the other way around. He wants to do business in Germany.

You can absolutely go through this process without speaking German but it will cost you money in lawyers.

> I think his point is, English is the lingua-franca of the internet and international business.

Maybe the Internet, yes. But international business? I don’t think so. Maybe from a perspective of native English-speaking person it appears to him like that. But it’s not the case in many non-English speaking countries.

> Maybe the Internet, yes. But international business? I don’t think so. Maybe from a perspective of native English-speaking person it appears to him like that. But it’s not the case in any non-English speaking country.

When a Swedish company does business with a Portuguese company, they speak English. Other languages are used for domestic business. International business is done in English. There are exceptions to the rule like the Francophonie, but let's not be pedantic. You may learn some phrases of the other party's language as a gesture of goodwill and politeness (and honestly it's kinda fun use of company time), but the actual important talks take place in English.

> When a Swedish company does business with a Portuguese company, they speak English.

Correct, and they both feel less entitled about the other part not speaking their language as English native speakers do

> and they both feel less entitled about the other part not speaking their language as English native speakers do

Have a couple of stories about this. Yes, some people think that you should know their language when they just speak theirs. I do not find it too polite, honestly. Especially a couple of times I saw things that even once made me jump in and say: "how many languages do you speak?" He was abroad, you know, in Asia. And I had to reply: "what makes you think everyone should speak english? You are not even in an english speaking country".

It is not nice to see people behave like that. I think it made the locals feel insulted, not bc he cannot speak the local language. It was because of the attitude of demanding the others to talk to him in english. English is the most used second language. But noone said each of us must learn it.

Just my two cents.

We might speak English but you will be signing everything in Portuguese.

And depending on the education we also speak Spanish, French, German and Italian, as the main learning paths in high school available to chose from.

But again, legal documents, Portuguese.

Why would a contract for an international deal not be in English?

Because legally, the contract has to be in the jurisdiction's official language

That’s not true - you can have a contract in any language in Germany. But the first thing that a court adjucating any dispute would do is have a certified translator translate it into German - at your cost. And that translation will be out of your control. So it makes sense to have a German contract, so at least you know what the contract says going to court.

correct - all our actual investment documents are in English.

Plus, if during the certification of the translation it comes up that the document does not comply with the legal requirements, it may lead to a contract invalidation. It can be really expensive depending on the matter of the dispute.

You can choose both the law and forum in many types of commercial agreements. Typically international contracts will choose English law as the governing law.

If your company has a legal representation in the English speaking country, sure, go for it.

Obviously not true for many countries. In Sweden we often use English even for domestic contracts. I've seen employment agreements in English between a Swedish company and a Swedish employee.

Because a dispute needs to be heard in a court, at which point precedent and/or statute need to be considered, and if the contract is in a different language to either of those two then interpreting all of them together becomes impossible.

Presumably because the contracting parties want the contract to be interpreted and enforced by the courts of a country in which they both do business.

It's not unusual, I think, for big international companies that already have assets and legal advisers in the UK to specify English law and English courts for a contract, but if a small Greek and a small Italian company were to have a contract in English, it would, I imagine, just make a legal dispute much more dififcult and expensive to resolve (whether or not the contract specifies English law and English courts: different problems in each case).

> And depending on the education we also speak Spanish, French, German and Italian, as the main learning paths in high school available to chose from.

Come on now, how many people had any of these languages in high school speak it at a conversational level let alone for business. The vast majority of people i met who learned a foreign language in school (other than English) cant speak it.

Many do.

Myself I speak fluently six languages.

I am not sure in what circles you move, but the idea that "many" speak 4 or more languages is... not quit common.

The issue is probably what you personally consider fluently / be able to speak.

On average most educated continental Europeans speak three languages, their own, English and another European language, or local dialect.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

I specifically went to a European language focused school where learning a lot of languages was a thing people did (it was also classified as such as by the government). Six languages was the most anyone ever spoke, and that was a dude who spoke English, German and Chinese natively (lucky bastard). Even people who were good with languages did not go above 4 usually.

IMO you're misrepresenting to a huge degree the actual part of the population that is able to learn this many languages. Most young people in Europe can speak a native language and a second language, with a bit of a 3rd language thrown in. And that's only counting the richer part, many do not learn past a 2nd language if that.

BTW I count speak fluently == could have a dialogue with a native person about a random topic and be understood. Being able to ask for directions or talk about the food is not fluency, I can do that without language at all.

Yes, I specifically said myself, not everyone. I have worked professionally in all of them, when I said fluently I meant it.

The average as per EU statistics is three languages.

The person's country main language, english, local dialects or additional national languages in countries like Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland and so forth.

Or in the case of European expats, the language of the country they happen to work on.

Sweden went through a massive cultural swing towards English/US culture in the later 90s and then at full speed through the later decades. English was initial an alternative language that Swedes could optionally pick at the age of 15-18 (a choice between German, french and English). Then it became a graduation requirement for all students at that age group (with German and french being delegated to a third optional choice), and then English moved down the age groups and now Swedish children learn it beginning as early as age 8-9. English has become a second required language in Sweden throughout the education system.

> But international business? I don’t think so.

Pray tell what the language of international business is in the EU.

Between which countries?

Poland and Estonia.

Okay, and what about Poland and Germany? Or Germany and France? Or Belgium and The Netherlands? Or Germany and Italy? Can you with 100% confidence tell that all companies in all cases between those countries do business in English? What about a Belgian company from Wallonia and a French partner? Or Luxemburg and Wallonia?

> Can you with 100% confidence tell that all companies in all cases between those countries do business in English?

No, but in every one of those cases English is the way to bet.

> What about a Belgian company from Wallonia and a French partner? Or Luxemburg and Wallonia?

Almost certainly French because it’s the working language of both companies. If people share a native language they’ll use that. Otherwise the default is English. It’s not certain that they’ll use English but Siemens doesn’t expect its international partners to have German speaking partners for dealing with it; it does expect its executives to speak English.

Just as science has a lingua franca so does business. It is English.

The only English speaking country in the EU is Ireland. Many people in France, Italy or Spain do not speak English, at least not beyond elementary school level. It's even worse in countries such as Greece, Romania or Poland. It's hard to do business that way. So we use a lot of Google translate, but contracts are always in the native language.

Minor nitpick, but over 90% of the Dutch population can read/write/speak English. It's compulsory education.

And also basic levels of German and French. Outside of tech I actually hear from multiple sources German is an important language for trade between medium-sided companies, to Germany of course but also a large portion of the other eastern EU members.

Malta also has English as an official language.

This is all true but as an American (I grew up speaking a different not European language), Europeans' ability to switch languages is interesting/fun.

Once I had a business meeting in Switzerland. It was all in English (for me, the American), but at one point they were speaking German to each other. And later in the hallway, they switched to speaking French with the lawyer who was there with me. And at lunch in the restaurant attached to the office, the Swiss German host ordered his food in Italian.

The problem is legal texts are complicated even if you are german.

Translation brings in ambiguity.

You being downvoted just shows how HN struggles with things like law practice, which are outside this echo chamber.

In Denmark I received English copies of various work / housing contracts, with a very clear disclaimer "in case of any disputes, the Danish text applies". I believe we did the same in Italy with foreign clients - Italian binding text, English courtesy non-binding copy.

Such a copy is good enough to use for 95% of the negotiation process. Then, if it's a serious business contract, you get a sworn translator to check its accuracy before the final signing.

(In my case, since the Danish ones were standard contracts, I just checked that they didn't differ from the publicly available texts).

It is a mistake to think merely translating bureaucratic lingo will suddenly lead to an understanding of it. Even if the individual words are understood, it is likely the meaning is still lost. Translating bureaucratic lingo may certainly speed up the route to understanding, but one would still need to internalize laws and processes. Most bureaucratic lingo is tricky even for natives.

Example from Dutch bureaucracy: "A household receiving an allowance under the Participation Act must contend with the Cost Sharing Norm". That's all nominally English, but effectively gibberish without an understanding of what the Participation Act is all about.

There is no easy technical solution at hand here. That doesn't mean the author doesn't have a point concerning the notoriously obtuse German bureaucratic machine. But any real solution will have to involve a cultural change.

They can't even be bothered to learn the language ...

I wouldn't expect the forms to be in English, because that would be Ugly American. It would be very hip for them to do it, but that's their choice. Almost every educated adult under 60 there speaks English, as far as I can tell.

I would note, though, that in a court proceeding, one side can pay for simultaneous English translations (I don't know about other languages). I know this because of the German map patent I worked on. I didn't get to go to Germany for the hearings, but if I had, we would have gotten the English service.

> Almost every educated adult under 60 there speaks English, as far as I can tell.

This is not true in Berlin, atleast. Even the immigration office may not speak English.

I can see why in Berlin people who hang out in bourgeois spaces would think that. Almost every university graduate under 40 is able to speak English and an awful lot of those under that age. Germany isn’t like Scandinavia where everyone without severe educational issues speaks English well but it’s another world compared to Italy, and Berlin has unusually high levels of competence in English for Germany.

> Berlin has unusually high levels of competence in English for Germany

I would not confirm that.

In Berlin everybody speaks at least some English, and more importantly, people are way less "shy" to do so.

But the overall level of education (and that includes foreign languages) is much much lower in Berlin than in the southern states. You can even get your Abitur in Berlin without having to take English exams. That's something that's impossible in say Bavaria.

There’s no requirement for English in the Bavarian Abitur. You must pick one language up to the exams, but you can totally pick Latin.

I’m fairly confident that you have to have at least 4 years of English in school everywhere in Germany if you have at least Mittlere Reife (you can pick a different language as first language in 5th grade, but you need to have Englisch from 7th to 10th)

Did they change something in the last decades?

English was once mandatory as far as I remember. (And you could pick French, Latin, and sometimes ancient Greek, or Spanish additionally).

But the point about Berlin is in fact a little bit different to what I've written before: You can get ABI there without any foreign language at all! (And their math and physics level was more or less comparable to my 11th grade in Bavaria). I was shocked when I leaned that… (That was the first time I've understood why some people would like to lower the ABI results of people coming form the north by one up to two grades when they come to study in the south; the different levels of education across Germany are in fact a real problem).

You can get the Abitur in Berlin without having a written or oral final exam in a foreign language in Berlin, that’s true as far as I know. You still need to take classes in at least one foreign language in the time up to the exam and the grades will be part of the final grade.

Exactly. It's possible there to have no final exam at all in English (or any other foreign language).

Whereas there were not much possibilities to get around the final exam in the second foreign language in Bavaria, and no way at all to avoid the exam in at least one foreign language. Which makes a very big difference for someone who's not good in languages—as only the grades form the exams are part of the graduation certificate (which is relevant for example when applying for a university place).

That extremely unfair!

You get Abitur in Berlin more or less for free.

The grade from the subjects you don't have any final exams in are of course not part of the graduation certificate…

I know someone who was struggling in Bavarian middle school with at best average grades, moved to Berlin, could join the "equivalent" of Gymnasium there, and got out with an A-grade ABI. Such "good" grades would get you for example prioritized for say studies in medicine or law, whereas you would not even be allowed to get into university in Bavaria with a middle school diploma.

That are literally life changing differences! That's really not OK.

I know someone who changed school from Rheinland-Pfalz across the river to Mannheim (Baden-Württemberg) and got their Abitur essentially for free - at a private school well known for making everyone pass. So what does that tell us?

It's almost impossible to grow up in Germany and not be forced into English lessons. English is mandatory even for the lowest level of education. I can asses you, more or less everybody here does know at least some English.

But of course no official will talk to you in English. No way. Even if they could without much effort.

If you need to speak to an authority you need to do it in German. They will insist on that. Out of their perspective it's all about forcing you to "show respect" for the German authority.

Berlin is special anyway. It's more likely that some random dude on the street speaks English than German. I know people that live in Berlin for many years and still don't speak any German at all. In the day to day life that works out pretty well. The only occasions where they need to bring some native speaker with them is when they need to interact with the authorities…

On the countryside it's different though. Even everybody does also know English you wouldn't get away with not learning German; as not only the authorities would insist on speaking German. People will just ignore you and pretend they don't understand if you try to talk to them in a foreign language (even everybody understands at least some English).

I am also from a country that has mandatory English lessons and the overall level is very poor.

I would say the English level in Germany is quite high all in all.

Everybody understands it, most people are able to speak it quite well.

This should be no wonder as the languages are actually quite similar. At least the gap isn't so big as for example between English and some Latin language, or even something linguistically much more far away.

But even people are considerably well educated in this regard they don't like to speak English in daily life. Berlin (and the few other big northern cities like Frankfurt) are mostly an exception to that. But even there this does not hold for authorities. They will on principle insist on German.

>....as the languages are actually quite similar.

They're actually quite not. Try typing something into www.deepl.com - verb placement alone separates the languages by much more than a few shared roots.

* I do so wish the German rules on the pronunciation of 'ei', and 'ie' could be/ could have been internationally adopted.

I hosted Greil Marcus at Google. His first name rhymes with "real" and not with "style" as one with German training would expect.

I asked him about that. He said in Alabama where he was born this was fairly common.

>> ....as the languages are actually quite similar.

> They're actually quite not.

Of course German and English are very close related.

Both are Germanic languages. Look here, in the right lower corner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media...

Or here:

https://alternativetransport.wordpress.com/2015/05/05/34/

Not only words and grammar are closely related even most of the idiomatic "pictures" are exactly the same in both languages.

I have also no clue what you mean by "verb placement alone separates the languages" as both languages use by default SPO (subject - predicate - object) word order. (German is a little bit more flexible in this regard, though).

I took German in college, and I'd say without hesitation that my German, even right out of college, was worse than your English.

However, I found when I was there that attempting to speak at least a little bit elicited sympathy, and they would answer in English. It was probably easier than finding some German words I would understand.

So yeah, you don't just walk up to someone and start out speaking English.

Has nothing to do with ugly american or being hip.

Translating legal terms can cause the meaning to change.

The German texts are often already highly complicated, that does not become better by translation but leads to new problems.

No they cant and legal translators have insurance to pay you damages if it dies. You should not use random translator, but one that specializes at legal.

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