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Comment by 0xRusty | Hacker News Reader

It's not easy for people promoted into manager roles either. I'm a new manager who the first time is now exposed to salary details of my, now direct reports, former co-workers. For the past couple of weeks I've been walking around thinking "how the hell does he make that much?! When I was at that level of experience I was paid $40k less".

It's really affecting me to be honest. I'm seeing people in different light and resenting their pay. I'm resenting people being paid in some cases almost double what I was on a new comer to that role with no experience, we used to pay about 80k hour for a new starter in the role I now oversee, we now pay over 140k. That's barely less for a brand new starter than I was making a few months ago with 10 years more experience in the role.

Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get.

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> Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get.

Wow, what an immature attitude YOU have.

Of course everyone "wants wants wants". You're displaying that attitude right now. You're feeling hurt about not getting more, because you want more. That's normal. That's OK. If someone offered to bump my salary to a million pounds for no reason, of course I'd take it.

You should probably try asking for a pay rise. Pay, in tech, has everything to do with your negotiation power, and almost nothing to do with how good you are at your job. Your job is to maximise your salary. For the person paying the salary (your boss), their job is to minimise it. They're not doing it because they despise you, think less of you, or want to exact petty revenge on you. they do it because it's their job to keep costs down. Just like you would try to minimise the cost of servers, or software licenses. The sooner people understand this, the better for everyone.

Now go and advocate for yourself. If you really feel under-paid, ask for a raise. Threaten to walk (be sure you can actually follow up on that). If your contribution to the company is deemed to be worth the money, you'll get it.

> If your contribution to the company is deemed to be worth the money, you'll get it.

I've rarely seen individual contributions able to be evaluated 'fairly' at any scale. Your skills may be top notch, but you were focused on a project that was killed after 10 months because.... budget cuts? Bad management? Your contribution to the company in that case can be seen as a net negative, but it's largely out of your control.

The OP should just leave and find a better gig. That might be slightly harder over the next year, and yeah, it sucks to do that, but it's how you get big raises. The people coming in at 140k are demonstrating that (in the above example).

Trying too much 'negotiate for a raise' tips your hand that you're unhappy, and you will be treated differently if you make anything more than a casual ask (even then...).

> I've rarely seen individual contributions able to be evaluated 'fairly' at any scale. Your skills may be top notch, but you were focused on a project that was killed after 10 months because.... budget cuts? Bad management? Your contribution to the company in that case can be seen as a net negative, but it's largely out of your control.

this is absolutely true. But everyone needs to decide for themselves if they want to work for a Google-esque company that does shit like that, or something smaller where you can have a material impact and your absence will be noticed and missed instantly.

When you join a company, you are making an informed bet. You're betting that you can find successful projects to work on within the company, that the budget won't be slashed, that your manager isn't a sociopath who only promotes his drinking buddies, that half the company won't get fired within 6 months, that it won't go bankrupt.

You won't always get it right, sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand, in which case; try again, don't sit tight for another 5 years hoping things will change; do something about it. Move projects and try again. Or find another job.

Trouble is I LOVE my job and the company I'm in. I know our processes like the back of my hand (I designed half of them) and feel very valued and enjoy it all. I don't want to leave just to get money. I just also dont see why people coming in to "junior" roles are paid $50k more than I was on at that level of experience just a few years ago (I understand inflation, this is something else). It's nuts.

I totally get it. I understand you love the job. It doesn't love you. It's a one-way relationship. Keep that in mind. The $ amounts are a bit inflation, and partially just because there's just a huge amount of money circulating around. Many depts and companies measure themselves on headcount, so hiring more people - even at inflated rates - gives them something measurable.

“I feel like my company values me. But they are not paying me what I’m worth”

If that suns up your sentiment, do you not see a problem with that?

I am pretty sure you missed the entire point of their comment. The commenter was not speaking about their own current comp, but the current comp vs quality vs entitlement within their direct reports. It’s hard to look at low quality employees making large salaries as a leader and not be dismayed, disappointed, and discouraged when the entitlement and whining happens. A lot of employees act like children and that is not ok or justified. That is what is immature, not pointing out that people commanding six figure salaries should maybe act like adults and actually provide six figures of value for their compensation.

After a couple of decades managing developers and engineers I specifically left management and now refuse to take on any role that requires direct reports just because the entitlement attitude in tech is so bad nowadays. “Management” gets a bad rap here on HN, but to me, they are real hero’s and doing a shit job.

If your staff is acting like spoiled bratty children, you talk to them. If they don't adjust, you fire them.

If you can't fire them because they're hard to replace, guess what; they have more value than you attributed to them, and were probably RIGHT to complain and insist on better pay.

Just like your employer tries to extract maximum value for minimum pay out of you, so should you extract maximum pay for minimum investment out of your employer. That's only fair.

The problem isn’t firing them, firing people is actually pretty easy—-it’s having to manage them up to that point where you determine that termination is the appropriate solution.

Whether or not they have value or hard to replace doesn’t excuse them from having the responsibility of civil behavior. Where is being valuable an appropriate excuse for being an asshole acceptable anywhere in society?

Basically everywhere, unfortunately.

> It’s hard to look at low quality employees making large salaries as a leader and not be dismayed, disappointed, and discouraged when the entitlement and whining happens

I’m “entitled” to my market worth. I feel not an ounce of sympathy for parent poster. He has accepted what the company is paying him.

> I’m “entitled” to my market worth.

Sure, but your employer will have the expectation that you will provide market value for that compensation that they provide you. If you are well paid and do underwhelming work compared to coworkers who are paid less but provide exceptional work, your leadership will take notice of that. They will and should expect more from you because your better lower paid coworkers are moving the value/$ bar expectations for you.

Literally the worst reputation you could have among your leadership is that of a “market worth” paid underperformer. Folks like that are the easy choice when the RIF conversations starts happening. When RIFs aren’t happening, folks like that are going to catch every shit job a manager can throw at them.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Mostly with this bit though:

> "Management" ... are ... doing a shit job

One strategy I like to use when I encounter a manager doing a shit job is to complain about my six figure salary every 1:1 while putting in the minimum possible effort. Eventually they tend to leave and never take a management job again.

Works a treat.

If you really hate it that much is management for you? I’d learn to get more comfortable with it.

Also it’s not fair to be mad at your coworkers cause you were underpaid. Be mad at the company or your bosses if anything.

this. really. I wouldn't want an envious manager.

The best managers I've ever had have always felt like they were genuine advocates for me towards the rest of the business. To push to pay me more, promote me, and share my concerns and other thoughts to the rest of the company.

It doesn't sound like you're a great advocate for your reports.

This should be a two way advocacy. Advocate for the employees to the company. Advocate for the company to the employees. When they align in the middle they'll both succeed.

As a fellow manager I am with the other guy who responded, you come across as somewhat immature here.

> Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job.

What exactly did you think your responsibility as a manager would be?

I once knew a manager who had people reporting into him who made 10X as much as he did (yes, 10X). I asked him about this once and his response indicates what you expect from an excellent manager "they are taking risks that i don't take and they are compensated for those risks".

You seem fixated on the past and salary issues instead of learning from this experience. Perhaps you can read up on how to negotiate and try to make more yourself? Maybe they were better at salary negotiations and this is why they earn what they do?

Being a manager and "resenting people" isn't a good thing.

Report back after you get a lump sump to allocate between the various people on your team for 2023 raises. That should be an exciting new growth opportunity for you.

>I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get.

I go to work everyday for one reason: to exchange labor for money to support my addiction to food and shelter. All three things being nearly equal, my goal is to extract as much money for my labor as possible as long as my job choice doesn’t make me hate my life

I find it kind of sad that's all you get out of your job to be honest.

What else do you think your job gets out of you besides an extraction of value for your labor?

Please tell me you don’t believe the bullshit of a “mission” from a for profit company or that “we are family”.

Then why are you upset you were paid less than someone else?

It's even harder when you're a manager, and you inherit direct reports who both make more money than you, and have more stock options than you, AND have been at the firm for a shorter duration than you, and they have minimal experience (but good tech chops).

Did you ever ask for a raise or more money?

If so did they ever say no?

In my experience many who complain about salary often failed to ever try and negotiate on behalf of themselves.

Some of us think that doing our job should be enough to be fairly compensated without having to take on the additional duty of continually fighting for it.

But since that isn't how things work in glorious capitalist utopia, I just slack off hard core instead. I don't need the money near as much as I need my time back.

Just wait till you see the comp in the glorious socialist utopia, you're gonna love that I bet.

I think that a lot of people would be happy with America moving to the mix of social programs, taxation, and salary that Sweden or Norway have.

Surely. The point is all these systems have tradeoffs. I'm guessing OP would find things to be disappointed in there, too, as have many of the people who actually live in those places.

edit: especially when it comes to comp, which was how this started. The left hand (as it were) criticizing comp in tech, and the right complaining about capitalism, is my favorite part.

There is an element of failure to negotiate, and to renegotiate, involved but if that's where your thinking stops you're missing the point. It's not just that the person involved didn't ask for a raise. It's also the fact that everyone above them who was privy to salary data accepted it. Every single person in a higher management role was perfectly OK with two people doing the same job being paid significantly different salaries.

And then you start wondering if you're being underpaid too. Do all the people above you know how much of a sucker you are for accepting the lowball rate?

It's a problem for people who get promoted to a level where they get to peek behind the curtain and see all the things that the company has been doing wrong all the time they've been there, and the realisation that all the other people are fine with it. It kind of gets to you after a while.

I respectfully disagree. There is no "inherent" fairness for salary in my experience (older in my mid 40's). For example if you feel you are underpaid and deserve 15K more per year... make your case. If you have a reasonable case to be made (others make this for salary for the same job ... or I am worth it because) then make it. If they don't offer anything then perhaps you do work for a crappy company and should consider another job.

However the idea that everyone should be paid the same for the same position is just not how the world works.

Here is a personal example. Long time ago I worked at a bank.. I did simple teller operations and some loan document processing. My co-worker did the same job. However when it came to number of transactions processed and number of loan documents processed I literally was twice as productive. So should we be paid the same since its technically the same position? Or do I have a valid case to be made that I am worth more? Would my coworker have a valid reason to be upset that I make more?

Another example in my IT career, In general I get things done quickly and am easy to work with. There are people in this profession that sometimes lack social skills and can just be difficult to work with. Is my ability to easily work with others and get things done quicker (technical skill and people skills) worth more to my employer than say someone in my same "position" who is hard to work with..add hurdles to get things done... etc.

It's almost impossible to negotiate anything unless you have leverage, and leverage only exists when there is a decision-point: "I'll pick this other job unless.." or in the beginning "I won't join your company unless..."

Randomly asking for a raise doesn't work.

> Randomly asking for a raise doesn't work.

Randomly, no... but asking for a raise while showing reasons why you think you deserve it definitely can. I know because I literally just did that.

Keep a running document of accomplishments, especially anything that is "above and beyond", whatever that might mean in your context. It's much easier to present that then trying to remember everything you did months/years later.

Also, in my experience, it's fairly easy to tell which companies will be willing to give you raises based on how your initial salary negotiations went. When I've worked for stingy employers who wouldn't budge on salary, I rarely got anything over a basic 2-3% annual bump. When there was a lot of flexibility in the salary range (or when they've offered more than I asked) it has been quite easy to get additional bumps. I also have the same work ethic and drive at each of these companies, so I don't _think_ it was a difference in performance. I've always received glowing reviews regardless of the company.

I don’t negotiate. I’ve found it’s usually a waste of time and I’m still negotiating around the margins. It has been much easier to just get another job.

I also resent on principle that the primary driver of one's salary must be something that's at best tangentially related to the job: Negotiating skills. Let's say someone taught himself programming, went to university for computer engineering, got decades of experience in the trenches. A programmer geek through and through. And then someone fresh out of school starts at double that guy's comp because... ... New guy is a slick negotiator? And we're all supposed to just accept that's how the world works? "Just negotiate harder, bro?"

My experience with salary negotiations is probably similar to yours. It's pointless. The company has all the power, and if you give an ultimatum, they say "there's the door" anyway, so why bother? Just skip it all and go out the door from the start. Grind some Leetcode, go through the interview hazing ritual again, and job hop. It sucks, but I guess it is the way it is.

And I also don’t do meaningless coding interviews - ever.

You're not making yourself look very good here. If you didn't realize this was happening then you're niave. Your response is immature and selfish.

Either accept this and start managing it to your advantage, your employees advantage and the companies or just accept that you've proven the Peter principle.

> Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get.

Does everybody do this or is it just you? People are paid market rate if another business thinks you are worth more they will offer you more. You then go to your boss and ask them to meet or exceed the market rate for you.

If you sell yourself as just another developer don't be surprised if your boss puts that expectation on your salery.

You just need a different view on salary.

From a company's perspective, your salary does not reward your skills or efforts, your salary is the strict minimum that is necessary for you to accept to work for them and to be happy enough to be productive.

Turns out the minimum you accept is lower than some other people's minimum.

It seems you didn’t negotiate hard enough on your behalf (or others negotiated at the right time).

The question you should ask yourself as a manager now is not the question whether you expect others to negotiate like you did, but how can you reach a pay level across the team that is somewhat balanced .

The company I am working in has fairly strict guidance based on competences and experience which I do like. It makes sure that no one is payed much below or much above an estimated market rate. You won’t receive sometime into your team who is extremely overpayed because they were their manager‘s darling.

This is a meme but it’s not really how it works, not entirely anyway.

Take meta. If you joined today vs a year ago and everything else was the same you’d be making over 30% as much.

Companies generally don’t pay tenured people as much as new hires across the board. It’s not about negotiating.

Negotiation works when some company specifically wants you.

If you're one of the other 99% of hires you're going to be placed at some salary which has been already budgeted and approved for your position. There's some leeway there but it's not more than a single digit percentage, although I agree with patio11 and others saying that an extra 5-10K/year just for asking politely is not a bad deal.

So, basically what you're saying is that the "Negotiate harder, bro" advice only really works for 1% of the world. So why is it always trotted out as the solution?

I know HN is full of these Captains of Industry who merely glance at their bosses with an upturned eyebrow, and get $100K of RSUs thrown at them, but for the rest of the workforce, here's what negotiation looks like:

[Me] Hi, I'd like a raise.

[Co] Nope.

[Me] OK, here are examples of the value I'm providing and how it's increased over time.

[Co] Your current salary accounts for this.

[Me] Other companies offer 20% more and I'm only asking for 10%.

[Co] ...

[Me] OK, I have an offer from the other company. Last chance.

[Co] Well... Bye?

HN, like people who browse Blind, has a massive selection bias towards the money-optimizing, Leetcode-grinding types.

I never said you couldn't go somewhere else, that's actually the advice to follow when you reached your ceiling wherever you are (and you have an offer ofc).

> Companies generally don’t pay tenured people as much as new hires across the board. It’s not about negotiating.

But that IS negotiating. If you show you're willing to stick around in the same role for an extended period of time, for the same pay, you have implicitly negotiated that deal for yourself. Why TF would your employer be incentivised to pay you more if you show yourself to be happy with the status quo?

Have you ever offered to pay more for your morning coffee because Starbucks hasn't raised their prices in 2 years? No? So why would your employer offer you more money when you've not raised the issue of comp for 2 years?

If you're unhappy about that, you inform your current employer you've found a now role with better pay, and walk. If your employer deems you worth it (rightly or wrongly), they might offer a counter. You can choose to accept that... or not.

Just like if Starbucks raises the price of their coffee, you can accept the higher price and keep going there, because you think their coffee is worth it, or you find a different cafe with lower prices.

We are to our employers what a cup of coffee is to us.

Why are you comparing drinking coffee to switching jobs? It’s not the same at all.

In 25+ years changing jobs 8 times (6 since 2008), it’s never taken me more than a month to have multiple job offers.

I’ll be the first to admit that until 2015, they were just another enterprise CRUD job

Except it is, to your employer. Unless you are close friends or family with the people who run the business, you are just a brand of coffee beans to them. (and if you are friends or family, these decisions will still need to happen, but they'll hurt ten times worse when they do, which is why you never do business with family).

Accept it, and you will have much better success when negotiating your salary and planning your career path.

This is why job hopping is so popular. You can get a phat raise by jumping ship every 2 years. You negotiate by getting a new job.

“Salary Compression and Inversion”

It is all about negotiating.

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