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Comment by IAmGraydon | Hacker News Reader

I'm sorry, but come on. Being a musician myself, I always try to keep an open mind and fully realize that not all music is supposed to give you the warm and fuzzies, but IMO nothing about that is interesting. It sounds like mathcore on fast forward with a chipmunk incomprehensibly chattering over it. No interesting harmonic structure, no interesting instrumentation or arrangement, rhythms straight stolen from other genres.

I'm being genuine when I say I'm interested to hear what about this moves you. I almost always get it even if I don't like it. This...I don't get it.

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Certainly Ungray Days incorporates many rhythms, chord progressions, and other structures that are derivative of other works. I think this is true of all pop music though. These strike me as songwriting elements that have withstood the test of time because they work, so I don't necessarily view them negatively - to the contrary I feel that I need a certain number of these familiar elements for music to emotionally resonate with me. What I love about Tsumiki's music is these common pop structures combined with the fast tempo, weird voice, and busy instrumentation. There is chaos unfolding in the music but at the same time it is held together by classic structures that I recognize from older songs. It produces this chaotic yet focused energy that really gets me going. There's definitely nothing complex or groundbreaking in this song in terms of musical structure, but I haven't really come across other music with a similar "vibe", if you will (System of a Down may come closest for me.)

What I like about the song OP linked lies mostly in the legacy of how Vocaloid has been used in the past, e.g. "Disappearance of Hatsune Miku" [0] - there are certain textural elements that come with using Vocaloid that show up repeatedly, and a big one among them is "rapid chatter" effects. There are other ways of getting a similar result that don't sound the same, just like a session performance is probably going to sound different from a sampled instrument.

If you examine this stuff on the basis of harmonic structure, rhythm or arrangement you're basically going down the path of discounting most of electronic music, which is discretized into microgenres just on the basis of using a faster tempo, a different snare hit sound or an unusual mixing strategy. You have to really lean into timbre and texture to find what to appreciate.

[0] https://youtu.be/5qkTpJAhywg

There are all sorts of styles that use vocaloid, it's not all the fast chipmunk stuff.

I'm also a musician, there's a lot I can enjoy with vocaloids and utaus.

Also fwiw, 'rhythms stolen from other genres' is a really weird comment for a musician to make.

None of the things you mentioned are necessary conditions for good music.

It's definitely an acquired taste. I'm about 50/50 on vocaloid songs personally.

IMHO, the best gateway drug is this album/series this is from, though that may just be my personal nostalgia:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_lGrcOtzck

Another interesting vocaloid artist is SOOOO. However, anyone who has struggled with depression/self harm or has suffered abuse should not look them up if they think there is any possibility of being triggered by a mention of it (to the degree where I opened youtube in a private tab to find these links so that I wouldn't risk them being recommended while I'm in a bad headspace).

That being said, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUIelJYMO4U, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OOWWNFTguY, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZ0I71Yawo encompass many of those feelings better than any other songs I've heard.

I personally like the chaotic quality that many vocaloid songs carry, and much like other somewhat experimental genre's you start to be able to follow more after listening to it over time.

There are certain limitations (which will get better in time) and it's also because it is a stylistic choice. Vocaloid certainly created it's stylistic niche due to early limitations and it is quite hard to find songs in other styles using voicebanks that are suitable for other styles.

EDIT: That being said Miku can also be amazing: https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23655091

The original in a more Miku style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJNc9KVIZE

Or a more jazzy version but not as good as the first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwG9viczjhs

Compare to a human cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEsyBaG-uNw

Here is a different example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIBdpzporFs

Of course the original version which is true to Vocaloid style is like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqps4anhz0Q

Even if Vocaloid is capable of much more than just Miku, Miku is immensely influential in the subculture.

Does it sound better live ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_xTet06SUo )? Or for a closer comparison with the first link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepNc0Gk1E8 ? Sure, even though the Vocaloid style has its own charm. But you also do not need to be able to be able to sing in order to create a song with Vocaloid, so overall it's a great tool. If the song is good, someone will eventually cover it live.

Vocaloid allows many who want to compose but do not sing to participate in a remixing ecosystem. The collaborative nature of the community is an incredible strength.

> sounds like mathcore on fast forward with a chipmunk incomprehensibly chattering over it

Such an excellent and on-point description for 99% of Vocaloid content.

Try listening to what passes as mainstream J-pop/J-rock. By Japanese standards, the vocaloid scene is actually pretty innovative.

I'm not up to date on J-pop/J-rock as of 2022 but things of past years like King Gnu's Hakujitsu or LiSa's First Take performance seem pretty decent as far as fairly popular music goes, and I'm sure I am missing a lot of stuff due to my musical interests having shifted a fair bit over the years.

[1] King Gnu - Hakujitsu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ony539T074w

[2] LiSa - Gurenge: https://youtu.be/MpYy6wwqxoo?t=45

Hah. I was just about to post how that song earlier reminded me a bit of LiSA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CwkzK-F0Y00 or the Dorohedoro opening https://youtu.be/_nsNWzypHHg

Innovative by mathcore(TIL this is a genre tbh) standards. Frankly I'd think GP is spot on, even though I love Vocaloid songs.

You're right. And you are too soft in your wording. This sounds disgusting.

Please listen to Kiichi's "Francium" and tell me how much you hate it. My enjoyment of the song is greatly increased whenever I'm reminded that people dislike it.

> My enjoyment of the song is greatly increased whenever I'm reminded that people dislike it.

Why?

Yeah, that's pretty weird. I thought this stuff would be cool slowed down, maybe like some DJ Screw type stuff, but no.

There is a clear explanation for this. If you like something that others find disgusting, it allows you to consider yourself special. Entire subcultures stand on such a psychological focus. Everything has a place under heaven, and this is not good or bad.

Good or bad, it does mean a general increase is "unique" behaviors which are taken for reasons besides "its good".

Diversity is important, but it has the drawback that compatability suffers. Monoculture is no better, but the tendency to dismiss what others find unique is a recognition of the general (biological) strategy, to conserve some status quo to build community.

General advice, don't have strong feelings about what others like - if they enjoy similar things fine if not their opinions are not worth much in the first place. At the same time, don't be afraid to enjoy what you like or find your tastes change over time, it's natural and not necessarily wrong.

Worst thing you can do to a young person, be old, and tell them you love everything they like - either they will think you a foolish old person or be devastated they aren't as hip as they thought they were...

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