The ethics of reclining airplane seats
lesswrong.com
lesswrong.com
But if I have to sit in a non-reclined seat for more than an hour or two, there's a pretty big chance I'll wake up with my head bobbing forward and in horrific neck/lower back pain.
I tend to fall asleep pretty quickly on most flights (long or short haul), recline my seat soon after takeoff and keep it reclined until final approach. Not once in 500+ flights has anyone ever complained or asked me to sit up - and it wouldn't even cross my mind to ask anyone to do the same! It's their seat, their recline, that's what the button's for. Who am I to prioritize my own comfort over theirs (especially when the impact to mine is minor compared to how much I gain from reclining)...
Exactly! I'm surprised by some of the comments here considering that's it's essentially expected to do it. I wonder if they fly at all.
I'm a frequent flier too, and only one time it happened to me that someone complained (and he was some type of thug).
Also I'm not sure how this affects tall people in particular. Considering the seat angle, I don't think the seat will make contact with the other person knees. It's only an issue when food is served, but at that time it's forbidden to recline.
Others need these little wedge devices, I just sit and block it. And no, even if I wouldn't find it funny it's not like I can move my legs anywhere else.
This is mostly continental European smaller planes, honestly can't remember how it was in a 7x7, probably more space.
Being someone in such a category, I really do sympathize with people who are likewise made physically uncomfortable when I recline. But changing seats can work. I'd always be happy to change as well - we're in this together. Likewise, I'm happy to sit up if you need more room for a few minutes here and there. But I will admit I'm less sympathetic to the "How dare you -- you made me move my drink" crowd.
FWIW, I also avoid flights if at all possible. Trains and road trips are my primary means of travel.
And many companies that pay for or reimburse for business travel won’t reimburse for anything other than main - including the “frugal FAANG”.
If they need more space they can pay for a seat that reclines more then
> So many things are biased in favor of tall people, I have no problem with them having to pay more for a larger seat rather than externalizing those costs onto everyone else.
Case in point? Tall people are outside the normal, acceptable range of height. They certainly get micro- (and in this case, macro) aggressed for it. In my experience, the micro-aggressions seem more blatant because being tall is perceived as being an obviously good thing. People want to be comfortable in their bodies.
Tall people earn significantly more on average. Asking short people to underwrite tall people's airfare does not seem fair given that fact.
I jest, but I'm just a bit taller than average. Occasionally, my wife will point out something that's far easier for me because it's in my reach and not in her reach. Except in cramped circumstances, being taller gives you more flexibility.
"According to the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index daily poll of the US population, taller people live better lives, at least on average. They evaluate their lives more favorably, and they are more likely to report a range of positive emotions such as enjoyment and happiness. They are also less likely to report a range of negative experiences, like sadness, and physical pain, though they are more likely to experience stress and anger, and if they are women, to worry. These findings cannot be attributed to different demographic or ethnic characteristics of taller people, but are almost entirely explained by the positive association between height and both income and education, both of which are positively linked to better lives."
Link (PDF): https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/Deaton_Life_at_t...
Car, airplane, train bus, metro, etc. seats and space available are designed for shorter people. Doors are sometimes too short (I've taken multiple violent hits to the head due to this abroad). Clothes are harder to find.
Do you have any other counter examples? Maybe i only see when I'm inconveniences and miss when things are made for me.
Volleyball net.
Gutters on single story house.
Definitely not chairs, door frames, showers, or beds.
We're in, perhaps, a tyranny of the majority, but those are everywhere. As I'm sure you've already noticed if you're 6'6".
Never had to sit in the very last row of an airplane?
And on some planes they even allowed those seats to recline a little, so maybe not in any philosophical debate other than that people often don't consider other people's suffering
But in all seriousness, you're not used to it by now? Paying more for clothes that fit properly, a car that fits without hair brushing on the headliner or knees in the steering column, air mattresses, real mattresses, tents, bicycles, shoes, etc.
The plane only has 55 seats and no premium seats. I see tall people struggle all of the time.
Objectively, reclining your seat reduces the available space for the person behind you, who is already cramped for space. Even if everyone could recline (which they can't because of exit rows and back rows), the person behind you would have more space if you didn't.
So you can basically take this two ways. You can be utilitarian and try to minimize total pain ("Airplane etiquette is you only recline when necessary, and if you must recline, just put the seat back a little bit to get the comfort you need without encroaching too much on the person behind you."), or you can be Hippocratic and commit to doing no harm ("If someone is sitting behind you then don't recline your seat").
Either position is defensible, but I can't see any defense of the position that you naturally have a right to reduce your suffering at the expense of increasing someone else's.
I presume such chairs are costlier to manufature and maintain -- so most cheap airlines do not opt for them
They're singled in the middle so the bottom slides forward, the top slides back.
For what it's worth - I never mind. I get to partake in the miracle of flight. And they only give you, like, 3 inches of recline anyway. Just take it.
(Also, a lot more people have laptops than in the '90s. IME it's not possible to use laptops in coach if the seat in front is at all reclined, though I seldom see this mentioned.)
Still, miracle of flight and all that. Still beats walking.
Voicing the problem has been amplified due to the internet.
It was controversial to some back when you could still smoke on a plane.
EDIT: I agree with other posters that this became a bigger problem as the airlines reduced seat space over time.
For some reason business class is often like 5x 6x the economy! Why is there no middle class?
At 6'2" I've never really had a problem with someone reclining in front of me, and if someone behind asked nicely I'd go to upright lock position.
Of course, I usually don't have a foot bag which makes a big difference.
I do that on exit rows regularly (except during takeoff and landing of course)
Also, business/first class is often much less than 5-6x the economy price. In fact I'm not sure I've ever seen it that much higher.
- Economy $500
- Premium eco $1500
- Business $3000
- First $6000
And the gap can be wider on high-end airlines (15-20k for a first class ticket).
Air travel is not an idealized free market. Frankly, nearly nothing in our current circumstances even comes close to acting like an idealized free market, because one thing that requires is enough disposable income for all parties that paying more for something preferred is not likely to cause significant financial hardship. (And before anyone says "but it's only an extra $12 for premium economy" or whatever, it's not just this specific choice—it's about the mindset that you have to adopt when your purchasing power is so constrained, to consider every decision and try to be frugal.)
In the US it seems there is not enough competition and as well their are significant barriers to entry for new airlines.
You can just stop there and you'll be accurate about a major part of the source of almost any of our current problems.
I think people’s policies on reclining are probably significant impacted by how uncomfortable they are if the person in front reclines, which AFAICT is much more significant for tall people than people of median height or below.
Not only that, but I only recline if I'm awake and have my eyes open - in response to the person in front doing so.
I don't find it a more comfortable position, but I do find the person in front adopting it an uncomfortable encroachment on my space; so I reclaim it.
Obviously others differ, since I would never recline in the emergency exit row, so if we all felt the same way nobody would have anything to recline in response to.
So I will claim my space in order to avoid it.
At the intended spacing this wouldn't be much of a problem.
You might have the ability but it does impact other people. Be aware of this and it could be fine, a lot of the pro-reclining comments were definitely indifferent how their actions impacted others.
last 2+ years are all you need to realize this is a depressingly consistent theme across civilization today
This is a problem airlines have created making the customer feel morally obligated to solve. Most of the time, people feel bad about doing so that they believe others should behave the same way they feel when that’s not remotely the reality we live in.
After all, we choose to be in the pit. Everyone pushed airlines and bus companies to have the lowest fares despite uncomfortable spaces. I remember about decently comfortable public airlines that almost went bankrupt in the 2000s, in Europe.
I would just set a few rules : -1 Hund's rules for reclining seat : please don't recline the seat just if front of someone, if you can do it somewhere else
- please be gentle : recline slowly and possibly with some notice, instead of just teleporting into the knees, head, laptop, and coffee just behind you The noises of smashed bones, and the "ouch ! it hurt and it burns" you'll hear might indicate these belonged to someone.
In practice, cramped space in planes is a reason I take the train (1st class as it's nearly the same price as 2nd in here) You have plenty of room, sturdy and bulky seats, the seats have a shell, and slide forward instead of smashing everything behind. You also have a bar serving expresso, wifi, cellular networks, full size power outlets, and no luggage is checked in away from you.
I don't travel in Italy, but I would like to try the executive class of their Frecciarossa. It's a coach with only a dozen of so seats, 2 per row, and there is a conference room. For an acceptable rate, compared to the same thing in a plane.
Of course, it helps that their flights are mostly short-haul (mentioned in the article).
I feel that for much of airline travel these days we should just give up the charade that it's anything more than a flying bus (one of the companies is even named AIRBUS), install plastic hose-down seats, and be done with it.
Anecdotal, of course, but then this entire thread is fairly anecdotal.
There's an (understandable) tendency in rationalist circles to assume social conventions have little value but sometimes they reflect accumulated wisdom. Be a good neighbor and ask before you do something that affects people nearby, regardless of whether you have a unilateral right to do it.
I’ve seen many people break rules or even the law just because they wanted to (failure to wear mask, trying to get their kid to sit in an exit aisle, drinking, drinking in the exit aisle). Some of the rules change flight to flight. Either people’s behavior changes in these spaces, or I should lower my expectations. Probably the latter.
However, is someone is rude, entitled or aggressive when they ask. There is little to no way I will go out of my way to do anything to make them more comfortable.
Given the frequency with which it is an issue (rarely), it makes more sense to wait to be asked not to do it than to ask if I can do it every time.
Have airline seats gotten tighter (they've always been tight as far as my taller-than-average frame is concerned)? Are people getting bigger? Are people becoming less tolerant of others?
Put me firmly in the "The ability to recline implies a right to recline" camp.
-Jim Jefferies.
Fortunately Frontier airlines seats don’t recline. I hope more US airlines go this way.
Just complain to the airline about inadequate space in coach.
there is some percentage of boys that never grow up to be a man... which seems to be growing? Or is it that the internet has just allowed us to all share our experiences with each other easily.
Tho, look at Jan 6th insurrection. The oath keepers seem to be "grown men" larping as seal team 6 under orders from the president. I don't get it.