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Comment by satysin | Hacker News Reader

Ask if there are VRIF (voluntary reduction in force) options open to you. Most of the time there are unless you have some kind of "special" status.

I've never known a company that is in the process of layoffs not jumping at the chance to VRIF an employee because it is a far cleaner termination and honestly less stressful and upsetting for all involved IMHO.

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I'd be nervous about asking this unless I'm 100% committed to leaving the company, even if they say "no". Otherwise, you ask, they say "no", but now you've signaled that you're not especially invested in staying at the company, which feels like a negative thing to signal if you're interested in staying.

(edit: The idea being that you might get fired "normally" as a result, and not get generous severance.)

You don't need to ask your manager, why not go to HR and stress that this is a sensitive topic you don't want making back to your team? No guarantee they'll honor your privacy, but I'd say it's worth a shot.

HR. Is. Not. Your. Friend.

This is sage advice here. Never fall into the trap that HR is your advocate, despite what they tell you.

This 100%.

HR is there to protect the company. Sometimes that aligns with protecting the employee but when shit hits the fan ask yourself does HR work for you or for the company?

I know I sound a bit 'down' saying that but it is an unfortunate reality that companies are not very loyal to their employees when times get tough.

In my experience, HR may act kind, but they are 100% aligned with the company and not you. Giving them a signal that you're open to leaving at a time when they're trying to reduce the cost of resources that are human is a terrible idea if you aren't looking to leave.

Find a trusted friend in the company who is a survivor and ask them. Survivors have strong information networks for office politics and know such info.

That would almost certainly make it back to the person’s direct manager or 2nd-level manager (director, VP, whatever.)

I've never had HR share that kind of information back to me. And I would consider it highly unethical if they tried.

You do that and there will be an email describing the conversation in your boss' inbox before you get back to your desk.

Don’t volunteer to quit if you’re not willing to lose your job is sound advice, even if it’s a bit on the obvious side.

Even in an economic downturn an engineer with Meta on their résumé is going to be well positioned to find employment inside of the three months or more pay and six month insurance runway this deal provides.

So don't ask if you want to stay.

Having said that, if you're going to be worried about possibly/probably losing your job 6 months down the road what does it really matter if you have signalled you're not very invested in staying? The company has signalled they're not very invested either is how I look at it.

>(edit: The idea being that you might get fired "normally" as a result, and not get generous severance.)

Of course I am saying this as someone in Europe where firing someone "normally" is a lot more complicated and time consuming and comes with a whole list of other issues a company needs to make sure they manage properly. They can't just turn round and fire you with no pay because you "showed you were not very invested in the company as you asked if you could be let go when we were letting go of several thousand people". That is a 100% guaranteed legal hell hole no company likes to be in by choice.

In America perhaps that is something you genuinely need to worry about I don't know.

You're definitely not going to get fired for that on its own. Maybe I'm over-estimating how much this ends up mattering. But I think it can matter in other small ways too that can negatively effect your career growth.

Once the redundancies have started, the clock is running: you no longer have career growth at that company. You need to start planning your next career move elsewhere.

I don't think this is categorically true... you think _all_ the companies that have recently announced layoffs are basically sinking ships?

But it does mean your options for promotion and salary increase are clearly limited. And in tech there's strong evidence that more career development happens when you move companies than within a company.

You may find there's nowhere better to go, but switching to "looking externally" rather than "looking internally" for new jobs is definitely a good idea.

> You may find there's nowhere better to go

Yeah that's kinda the rub right now though. Everyone's frozen, tons are laying off. If the only information you have is "my company did a layoff", it's not clear you're better off looking externally vs. internally vs. staying on your current team.

One bad case is you leave your company that just did a layoff for one that has yet to do one (but will need to soon).

I understand your concerns and certainly don't mean to minimise them, this is just my personal experience and opinion after all :)

Do what you feel comfortable with at the end of the day. My original reply was meant as one possible answer that I have seen first hand to work well for both parties.

I will add as another personal opinion though that I very rarely see people that choose to stay at a company going though layoffs hanging around very long.

More often than not those people experience a 'depression' (for want of a better word that escapes me as I write this) seeing their friends leave, not having the freedom the had back in the "good old days", little if any progression, the constant "sorry not this quarter, we're still recovering from the layoffs", living in constant anxiety that they will be in the next round of layoffs, etc. So they often leave within a year or two anyway.

Over the years I have played this game and now I am a bit more proactive about exiting before that 'depression' hits me. Of course what is right for me is not right for all, only you can truly decide what you feel is best given your situation.

This nervousness is what companies rely on to keep the ship steady during massive lay-offs.

In other words that same company that in its heyday relied on the person pulling an all-nighter 'for the good of the company' yet failed to ever offer a reciprocal 'sure, take all the paid time off you need buddy' in return gets what it earned.

Although you may hear the 'rats from a sinking ship' and 'you're deserting the company and leaving your colleagues to pick up the slack' shrieked from on down high by management - Fuck 'em. They didn't actually give a shit about you on the way up and they don't give a shit about you on the way down.

Jump fast, jump early, beat the pack

I don't at all mean that I feel guilty about abandoning the company or anything like that, I'm saying this 100% from a place of selfishness. Wherever I am, I want my manager to think I'm engaged, I want to seem like a team-player. I worry that otherwise, I won't do as well at perf, I won't get put on interesting/meaningful work, I'll be relegated to the side and not feel as integrated into the team.

It's possible some of these are unfounded/exaggerated fears, though?

If you're 100% set on leaving with or without severance, for sure ask. But if you think you might prefer to stay if severance isn't an option, asking feels risky.

I think what you are describing is both a reasonable worry and also exactly the kind of ambiguity the company encourages. You have no leverage if you're unwilling to leave, and it's foolish to initiate a discussion like that from a position of dependency.

I'm not suggesting issuing ultimatums, of course, I'm just suggesting that you mentally prepare for needing to quit first, otherwise it takes a real pro to have that conversation. I know I'm not good enough to do it unless I talk about things like that with my manager regularly already.

I do wonder if these are questions you can ask confidentially in a different way. Like I dunno how big your place is but you might find this information easily in a meeting with HR, but HR is there to help the company (not you) so it depends on their priorities a lot. It's a very reasonable thing to wonder about when tens of thousands of people just got laid off from similar positions... I'd think a reasonable manager or HR person would understand that. But I certainly can't argue that managers and HR people are all reasonable!

In general you're probably right. Though once upon a time I tried to volunteer about three different times and never managed to get a package. At one point my manager literally said "Shut up, you're not getting laid off so quit asking!"

But isn't there an incentive not to do it given the payout they'd have to pay for someone so senior?

Keeping them around is expensive too.

But if the senior person is in a role that the company ultimately wants staffed, they're going to need to hire someone else to replace them, who will be new and less effective? (Though OTOH, given the current macro, maybe they can get away with paying the replacement less?)

In my personal experience some random senior employee isn't even pennies on the dollar when it comes to the total amount factored into the layoffs that are in the hundreds of millions.

The bigger factor is are you in a position that requires the company longer to replace you? If so you may just be in that shit position of being kept on another 6 months until the next round of layoffs and get a package half as good.

As the first poster said always get out first if you can as the packages never get better the worse a company does.

Never fool yourself into thinking you're too amazing to be let go and that is why you 'survived' this round of layoffs. The worst case is as I said, you are too good to be let go of yet.

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