In that moment I understood the genius of not just shipping an iMessage for Android app. Not having an iPhone is perceived as a failure state.
In continental Europe I've seen just the opposite. In many social contexts having an iPhone is associated with either being a mindless fanboy, a basic trend-following drone or, in general, bad with money.
As in "why would anyone overpay for a phone that does just the same as an Android?".
It's a very curious phenomenon.
- the population of 10 european countries combined is not as big as the US
Populations (skipping Russia with 145 million): Germany 83 million, UK 67 million, France 65 million, Italy 60 million, Spain 47 million, Ukraine 43 million.
That’s 6 countries, 365 million people. The USA has 332 million.
Even taking ‘Europe’ mean ‘the EU’, the ten largest (by population) countries together have about 360 million people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_U...)
Exactly opposite. US states generally have larger area, but lower population. Population-wise, California is about the size of Poland and Texas is similar to Romania. No state is comparable to Germany (83M), France (65M) or Italy (60M).
That sounds like a quality of life issue for people in America.
Which is an absolute joke of a phone unless you just value the apple logo that much, which most of Europe doesn't. 720p screen? 4gb ram? What decade are we in again?
It's like saying that people don't like licorice because people absolutely detest eating.
Maybe it is because it tastes like shit to them.
iPhone runs well on 3gb, 4gb, 6gb. It’s far more optimised than android.
The same cannot be said for android. Over time lack of ram cripples it.
Oh honey...
The cheap phones we have now could totally blow away higher end phones from the past...
But security updates, and lack of support on old phones essentially means you can't do that. Because they're gonna bundle in a ton of bullshit with the security updates.
We're discussing prices so I don't see how this is relevant in any way.
> use big screens all day so don’t value a large phone because it’s strictly a functional device
Then you don't need a $400 phone.
For laughs
Not great, but not terrible camera. Not flagship, but not sluggish processor. Nice bright 90Hz AMOLED display. 33W Fast Charging. Runs TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, Chrome and so on without a hiccup.
What else do you really need?
Is the iPhone a superior experience? IMO, yes. Do I need it? No. But do I use my phone enough that $8 a month is worth it for the improvement? Absolutely.
But I do agree because I'm very tied to the ecosystem, I use lots of Apple products, the whole experience is worth it.
For your usual non-tech professional using your typical five free social media apps, taking a couple pics for Instagram and doing a few calls? I don't think it's worth the extra $8. Better get coffee.
Just compare that to an S10 which is roughly in the same price range now
You really ought to look at Motorola's mid-range; as an example, you can the 2021 G-Power at sub-$150 prices.
That's what I buy for broke family members. They're practically indestructible and can do everything you need for $180 or so
The $300 Android is lucky to get 1, maybe a few critical security patches after that and then it's abandoned.
Meanwhile my mom is on her second iPhone, the first one lasted for 6 years with OS updates, the current one (SE2020) will most likely get updates until 2025. Two phones in about a decade isn't too bad IMO.
I have seen people disable updates, because they change how the apps look like, and devices are anyway mostly space constrained.
A Samsung A13 is €156, a Xiaomi 9A is €100, a Google Pixel 6A is €365, a Samsung A32 is €250...
So yes Apple is significantly more expensive than most of the Android phones, at least looking at the ones that sell well.
Most of them aren’t very good you’re right, but most people aren’t willing to pay more. Keep in mind that the north in most of Europe is to pay for the unlocked phone upfront, not finance it though the carrier.
And the SE is €200 more expensive than the Pixel 6A as I detailed. Not even the same ballpark.
As an example, I've noticed this to be very common in many scenes in Berlin, while in Germany as a whole iOS has a 45% market share.
So, yes, definitely. However it does show a marked difference with the US which is common enough to be worth mentioning.
This is a bad take and is more revealing about your social circle.
I take the phone unlocked, with AppleCare+, to attempt a normalization across regulations. Default warranty in the US is much weaker than in the EU, but should be the same with AppleCare+. Buying a locked phone is also cheaper in the US, but AFAIK it's not possible to buy a locked phone in France anymore.
US: 978 USD (excluding sales taxes), France: 1198 EUR (TTC, including sales taxes) or 998 EUR (HT, excluding sales taxes), so about 992 USD at current rate. So the iPhone in France costs about 14 USD more, or 1.45% more. That's not "much more" in my book, although it is a little bit more.
I think the common mistake is to compare European prices with sales taxes (20% in France) against US prices without sales taxes... Hint: prices displayed on the Apple store in the US are always displayed without sales taxes, while in the EU prices always include sales taxes (I'm not sure it's true in all 27 member states, but it's definitely true in France).
But I've read so many times (on French forums) people argue that Apple is overcharging EU citizens by forgetting to adjust for sales taxes that I defaulted to interpret "In Europe Apple stuff costs much more" that way.
In a way it makes sense, in France what you see is what you get, so the typical French consumer expects the sticker price on the US Apple Store to be the final price. In fact it's the law: in France you have to honor the sticker price, even if it's wrong (unless it's an obvious mistake, but the bar for obvious mistake is quite high).
Replace iPhone with something like Vertu.
Also I happen to live part of the year in Europe. And found the price of Apple products to be within 10% of Apple US.
I don't need to know the financial situation of the iPhone owners. I need to know the financial situation of the 50% of population, to compare to the 50% penetration rate in the US.
As much as I understand, phone carriers / operators subsidize phones in Europe to a much smaller extent than in the US, too.
You can argue that your experience is different, I'm just providing mine which I've experienced consistently enough to find it worth pointing as a common divergence from what I see in the US.
https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/24/eu-legislation-to-make-imessa...
And the only stats I could find say that iMessage is used more than WeChat
https://www.androidauthority.com/imessage-big-deal-guide-308...
Could it be that maybe your anecdote is meaningless outside of your bubble?
The legislation is aimed at opening up the APIs of all messaging apps/companies which meet their criteria for being a "gatekeeper". Apple simply happens to meet those criteria.
> And the only stats I could find say that iMessage is used more than WeChat
Your article called their data an estimate without giving any insight into how the data was estimated, other than the caveat that it may include users who only used imessage for sms.
You mean anecdata without hard facts are meaningless??? You don’t say.
Not to mention, where was the anecdote in your article? There's no anecdote there in a 1.3B estimate, for all I know it's just some random reporter's guess (backed up by who knows what), whereas an anecdote is at least a hard fact, just one with small sample size. If I don't know how the estimate is made then I probably actually prefer the anecdote.
Nonetheless I'm pretty sure apple would not want to hear X likes apple hates android merely b/c it reads apple where it disappears into NY Post page 6 buzz and gossip thing eg vapid nonsense
I think they want to hear they like apple because of its hw/sw features and tight integration.
Brand is a by way to tqa which is a by way to sqa (isakawa). Fanboys are repulsive to anybody who cares about products and services
It's not a culture of being cheap.
Is a culture of not valuing, in particular, the Apple tax.
A huge amount of people in Europe happily overpay for their cars. In any country of western or southern Europe you'll see tons of Mercedes.
I feel like you got offended by my comment as if I was criticising Europeans somehow. I wasn't.
I reside in the EU and I use an iPhone. This is dependent on context and social circle, but it does happen.
You really don’t see the fallacy in this statement?
Do you have any statistically valid longitudinal surveys?
> This is dependent on context and social circle, but it does happen
And every woman that lives in my house thinks I’m the best husband for her. You can draw any conclusion as long as you limit the sample size.
This is obviously an informal conversation and I've clearly stated in my comment that "I've seen" a different situation "in many social contexts". Which I, again, informally generalize into a phenomenon I consider common enough to be mentioned.
I do not intend to provide you with statistical backing for what amounts to, again, clearly obviously anecdotal evidence.
In short: Jesus, if you disagree or have a different experience, it's OK, let me know, no need to go straight into a formal semantics discussion.
It means about as much as the old Slashdot meme “I haven’t watched TV in a decade. Do people still watch TV?”
Could it possibly be that your experience is not representative of the broader EU?
My original comment was answering an existing comment that literally started with "I saw a humorous exchange at a social event" and described literally an anecdote.
I'm hoping you'll see why it's obvious that my comment was very much fit to the existing conversation that was already happening.
I think it’s a really safe assumption that most people don’t really care what others have, or really care that much about a device vs it doing what they need.
I don’t think that’s a US vs Europe thing. I see people in tech circles in America make the same judgements, but don’t realize that it’s irrelevant
I had never encountered the "blue vs green" bubble problem until moving to the US.
It's partly because the US has a higher rate of iPhones (through subsidized phone plans) and partly because the US hung onto SMS much longer than other countries.
However the initial person I was replying to was talking about judgements regarding the device itself and as a whole, not just messaging friction
Does 33% of the population of the EU and 50% of the population of the US really fit in your tiny bubbles.
You realize Android phones are running an operating systems whose entire purpose of being is to collect your data and continuously make money off of you?
> The first group buys for status,
With 50% of the population in the US having iPhones and 33% in the EU, where is the “status from having one”?
Besides, in the US, the difference between buying an iPhone on a 24 month interest free payment plan and an Android phone on the same payment plan is minimum. Even at minimum wage that’s less than 5 hours of work. But with todays worker shortage, even fast food workers are making $15/hour. This gets back to how is it a symbol of “status” when you have the same phone as a teenager flipping burgers?
> the second group buys for convenience,
You mean people buy stuff that makes their life more convenient? Isn’t this like saying “water is wet”?
> and the third group because the repairs are cheaper and easier (fewer models)
Repairs are easier because Apple has retail stores all over the country and actually have good customer service.
Maybe we should not assume it's always a country thing. It's peer pressure behaviour, and your immediate group of peers might or might not care.
It's not really the same, since if a group is using WhatsApp and you want to join, but don't have WhatsApp, you can simply install it. The same with all other messaging platforms.
With iMessage you can join over text/MMS, but it will make the experience so much worse for everyone that most people (from my experience) will simply not allow you to join.
There's a reason this is a major cause of dread for socially vulnerable teenagers https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-apples-imessage-is-winning-... but it's not that different for adults.
However I have seen first hand the Android prejudice, to call it something, in the US. And I've never seen it in the EU, where I've spent the majority of my time lately.
And, conversely, I've seen plenty of prejudice against iOS in a many varied (but not all, of course) social contexts across the EU.
But yes, definitely, it's anecdotal evidence based on my own experience.
Jokes aside I've found the UK to be closer aligned with the US socially on many things vs rest of Europe
The Smartphone Premium Tier device-segment (>600 USD w/o subsidy) makes up ~50% of all sales in UK, which firmly positions Apple far FAR in the lead in this segment, just like in US, UK, AU,... This is also not evenly distributed geographically (cities have a much higher sales of iPhones than rural areas).
--> There are barely any "tribes" left in the higher income-brackets of UK. A person who can afford an iPhone likely owns an iPhone, so non-iPhone users are either "quirky exotics" (i.e. using a foldable device) or very likely in a lower income bracket.
The lower income bracket is where the fringe of Apple/Android is, and that's where the argument of "iPhone means I'm successful" / "Android means I'm smarter" is really happening (~400USD w/o subsidy).
So if you're in one of the above english-speaking countries and you don't notice this argument, you're likely in a higher income bracket and likely live in a city.
Unfortunately I cannot share the data on the figures I mentioned earlier as they are restricted for sharing (I'm working in Smartphone business and we're analyzing sales data of all the world to make strategic decisions).
I tried a quick search to find some public data on price brackets and target groups I could share instead, I didn't find much unfortunately. But here's a public stat on price brackets to show the big valley: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1169438/share-of-global-...
The data resolution is unfortunately not high and also not clustered in countries, but it shows one aspect: ~70% of global sales accounts for devices <300USD. Apple has no smartphone below 300USD w/o subsidy so their global market share of ~23% of all sales is actually concentrated in just 30% of the market. In countries with more high-tier sales like UK, Apple usually has a significantly larger share of that tier. In more granular data it's visible how much Apple actually owns those price segments outside of China, and how households with more disposable income don't move away from Apple anymore (surely also thanks to Airpods and Apple watches, whose value degrades when not on iOS).
Anyway, what happened in English speaking countries first but is also growing in others (i.e. Spain, Italy, Brazil,...), as a result of that split is, that people of lower income and/or status associate owning an iPhone with wealth and success. This is not so much noticeable in higher income brackets where everyone can afford an iPhone, but on the bottom of that "iPhone class" this is very prevalent. Moreover, on the lower fringe of this there is not only social pressure to own an iPhone to represent your status, but to also own a RECENT iPhone and/or Airpods, Apple watches etc.
Unfortunately I couldn't find public data to demonstrate this, so it's fair for you to consider this not answered. Within the smartphone industry all this is quite known for many years now. Not sure what could be done to reverse this, so far the potent competition to Apple actually decreased by leaving the market.
A final interesting bit for which I also found zero public data: For several years this "iPhone class" in western countries was slightly female-driven, with more women transitioning from Android to iOS or upgrading to new iPhones than men. This seems to have balanced itself in the past 2 years now, maybe because the recent iPhone improvements are more techy than experience-focused? (speculation)
In recent years I only used SMS for 2FA.
Half of the problem is a branding issue (calling it "messages" on the phone did not help) and the other half of the issue is that it's not available on Android
Some of the arguments are straight up bonkers for me - for instance, "iMessage is more secure." Is it? Apple is a US-based firm and subject to the whims of US laws and governmental intrusion.
In my circle - and I have lived in both Europe and Asia - we heavily use Telegram. I find it to be far more favorable experience than iMessage. UX and interoperatibility between platforms is far more superior and it runs flawlessly - doesn't matter whether it is a flagship Apple/Samsung device or a cheap Xiaomi phone. Or PC/Mac/Linux for that matter.
I'm feeling you are assuming that the alternative to iMessages in Europe is SMS. It's not. The alternative is WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Facebook Messenger, etc.
why? They're both end to end encrypted but owned by meta.
Framing fundamental privacy measures as sneaky mode is actively harmful to their broader adoption, paints a target on the few people who do have dire need for protection, and makes us all vulnerable to efforts to legislate against what progress we’ve made.
E2E. yes; explicit key management, no.
So basically you are getting encryption on your device, but do not know, who can decrypt.
About the only messaging app that makes some effort on key verification and keys cannot be changed randomly is Threema.
If you start to really 'obsess about the details' -- and this'll mean different things to different people -- you'll start to run into the walls that Apple puts up. It's a very one-sided "my way or the highway" dynamic. It's easier to work around on their laptops, but impossible (or at least unreasonably impractical) on their phones. For context I gave iOS a shake twice, once with the XR and once with the 13 mini.
I've always felt that iOS is the platform you go with for:
- unparalleled high-quality integration with the Apple ecosystem
- a very strongly (and unavoidably) opinionated experience (where the opinions are usually more-or-less correct)
So where do you think these files that are used are stored?
Every app that reads and writes files shows your standard file picker that lets you load and save files that can then be shared across applications. This has been the case for years.
Having to use WhatsApp removes a reason to have to buy an iPhone and adds a new one not to care about the brand of the phone.
and yeah they are perceived as "status" lifestyle items. It's why apple emphasizes devices that can be shown off/worn in public
I agree software-wise Android ~= iOS but Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 < Apple A16.
But I wouldn't think that would be the case at all in a poorer country like Poland or Romania.
That was our first and last date, but I did quickly thereafter buy a new iPhone...
That's a crapshoot of an argument. If it runs the apps you need to be productive and doesn't get in their way, what's the difference?
My 4 year old Android device can do anything productive that someone else's iPhone 14 can do. What it can't do is play the latest games (not enough RAM), stream Netflix comfortably (small screen), or impress people with face unlock (lowly thumbprint recognition for me).
I've seen people on benefits with better iPhones than mine.
If your date judges you for having an Android instead of an iPhone, they're a terrible judge of character and wealth.
- I don't want to think about my phone, what software it runs, rooting it, modifying it
- I don't want to think about my phones reliability
- I don't want to think about getting it repaired literally anywhere in the world (I have had countless perfect experiences with the Apple store)
- I don't want to think about it being secure, if its stolen yadda yadda
- Having support for a work profile is irrelevant because I like to use two phones to keep everything separate
I bought a Dell laptop, there was a problem with the trackpad. The Dell technician came to my house and fixed it on my dining room table.
"Do you want a partner that uses social signaling as a criterion for picking their partner?"
Aren't they the same guy?
If a date cares which toilet or phone you use... that is weird. Run.
FWIIW I have a 20 year background in software engineering and devops. Today I run an infosec company, live in silicon valley, and I do not have a cell phone at all.
I have a desktop computer for getting work done in office hours, and if I have time alone away from home for an extended period of time I bring a laptop and a book which are used at times of my choosing.
Paper maps exist. As do standalone GPS devices. Personally I look up directions before I leave and write them down. Within a few months of not using a GPS I actually started learning to navigate on my own.
There is even evidence GPS reliance is literally causing atrophy in the portions of our brains evolved for navigation: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/7/24/20697829/gp...
I actually still use and prefer taxis over uber/lyft because there is no app, and they tend to know where they are going without staring at a phone while driving. As a motorcycle rider, I think all distracting screens should be turned off while driving. They get people killed.
As for photos, dedicated point and shoot cameras are still a thing as they have vastly superior lenses to most/all phones.
As for keeping lists, I switched back to paper notes. I rarely even look at them because the act of writing things down commits it to memory remarkably better than I expected, and my memory is pretty poor.
As for music, I use rockbox on a small dedicated music player with 2tb of storage. I filled it so I have plenty.
There is nothing stopping you from still using a phone for all these things, but consider keeping your phone in airplane mode full time so you are a bit less distracted and more disconnected.
The average person checks their phone 300 times a day. When you know the internet is off... that addictive habit dies down.
I did that for a year and used offline music and maps on the go etc. After that I stopped paying for cell service I never used as I could find wifi anywhere if I felt I really needed it. After that I deleted apps one by one and finding alternatives. Somewhere along the line I started finding I would forget to bring it with me to go shopping or for a walk. About a year ago I just ditched it entirely. I simply realized I am happier and more present and focused without it. Even airports, traveling, etc. There is no anxiety for me when I am without internet or a phone like there once was. It is like modern day survival training that paid off.
The mental health gains and my overall ability to focus has gone up so dramatically I do not see myself ever going back. Maybe a beeper for emergencies but that is about it.
I suggest anyone start with airplane mode and wifi only for a while and see how far down that path is right for them.
If you had asked me 2 years ago if I would ever leave home without a phone I would have thought you were nuts. Detoxing from anything takes time.
Practically no-one has WhatsApp here, but all my family in the Netherlands use WhatsApp almost exclusively. It's my impression that in the Nordic countries it's iMessage but the rest of Europe uses WhatsApp.
I'd like to see statistics though if you can find them.
I have noticed that my Norwegian friends use Facebook Messenger quite a lot and the iPhone is pretty ubiquitous there with younger folk, so perhaps Denmark is the same.
Getting non-work people into a video call if you don’t have an iPhone is painful.
Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp both have video calling...
In case you have lots of information to share you can also leave a recorded voice-message via WhatsApp, but that's all done in a asynchronous way, i.e. the person receiving the recorder voice-message can listen to it whenever he/she feels like it.
Android isn't bad, it is just that the ecosystem around iOS is that good.
This eternal attempt of forcing Apple to make their products/platform more open is in opposition to a lot of its users as well. I actually enjoy the walled garden and most do - it makes for a hassle free experience. If you don't want that - fine, go get an android or a old nokia.
To your point about walled gardens, I don't see how Apple developing an imessage client for android users defeats the walled garden. Unless you think part of the walled garden is to keep Android users from contacting iPhone owners? I don't think thats what you mean but that is what you are saying.