Honda electric moped coming, intended to fit “50cc” category
cycleworld.com
cycleworld.com
I am from France and driving a Piaggio MP3 400cc for 10 years (and other stuff before). New laws in Paris are pushing people to buy electric. For example, since this summer, parking in the street with a motorbike/scooter is paid if it's not an electric engine.
I'm myself waiting for the delivery of a Super Soco CPX. Its range and power isn't what I wanted, but I guess I don't have a choice, my MP3 is failing (50K+ kilometers) and I guess I need to transition to electric too. I tested the CPX, it's not very powerful and has only a 70km range (1 battery, can have 2 batteries for 140km range if you need). It goes as fast as 90km/h (130km/h on my MP3) and will prevent me from taking the highway to get out of Paris. But I guess we all have to make an effort !
Oh also my back will not thank me when it's time to get the 20kg battery out and take it home to charge it.
For comparison, this is the weight of an empty barbell.
It may have been more fitting to call the fish dumbbels.
80% of french commute are under 30km, probably much less in Paris, these things are more than enough for the vast majority of people
> Oh also my back will not thank me when it's time to get the 20kg battery out and take it home to charge it.
Actually it should help, people with back issues more often suffer from weak muscles than anything else. Stopping to use your back muscles is the best way to have back problems
I have to say, the Bonfire X is a terrifically delightful way of getting around any European city. Something about this class of transportation device, and the design of Europe, makes it more fun to do a daily commute than in any other country I've ever lived. If only the weather were more cooperative...
I just want an electric equivalent of "Universal Japanese Motorcycle" and there's none.
Of course trains still beat them for efficiency, but they’re all much smaller than SUVs.
Just give it time, there's a lot of people hungry for EVs in that price range.
I will keep my eyes open but won't hold my breath. There is no pressure yet from council here as in parent comments mentioned.
https://torrot.com/en/motorbikes/5/133/muvi
But that would probably be one of the "underpowered" models for you :)
The make and model is a Niu NQi from a Chinese scooter manufacturer. I've never seen them outside of NYC and SF, but I'm sure they are legal everywhere in the US. They are a great 50cc moped replacement IMO.
A fun fact about this is that literally everyone hates you because MP3 drivers are probably the most infuriating kind of driver to encounter in a city. Même le Sprinter de location roule moins dangereusement.
The question is, do you really need something that goes that fast ? The fastest road in Paris is the périphérique, and doing more than 70 on there requires either a act of god, or suicidal tendencies if there happens to be any traffic. Having multiple transportation devices, while not ideal, might very well be the best option. Not sure if you have family to take around (in which case, you probably need a car, if not, a regular bike will do), but for inside Paris, your average speed will be maybe 30km/h if you're lucky.
Also, those suicidal tendencies are typical of moto operators (motards) on the périphérique cruising at full speed between the motor vehicles in Lane 1 and 2. But it’s okay, they have their emergency flashers on.
https://www.piaggio.com/gb_EN/models/piaggio-1/piaggio-1-1-2...
It seemed euro-centric.
[0] https://mijn.bovag.nl/actueel/nieuws/2022/februari/meer-elek...
[0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch#/media/Bestand:Puch_Maxi_... [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet#/media/Bestand:Sachs...
edit Apparently some jurisdictions around the world use the term "moped" to refer to small motorcycles even when they don't have pedals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
Example of a 50 cc Vespa with pedals:
https://vespasmallframeforum.proboards.com/thread/7725/vespa...
Also (and I think more notably) the DMV does not require registration in most US states.
There's a fair number of people who end up on them after getting DUI's as well (although technically this is not legal since you're still required to have a valid driver's license almost everywhere... but they probably don't get caught that often).
Overall I wonder why this is interesting in that context, too.
Even worse, this article is purely speculative based on a design document.
And for this price segment only one seat? You need at least two.
They made a lot of sense during the oil crisis but why would anyone really bother getting licensed, paying for registration and maintaining insurance when you can get an electric bike and get a very similar experience without all that hassle?
I'm not trying to be dismissive mind you, but genuinely curious if this potential market will be big enough to address it.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-registration/new-regis...
"You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped."
Heck, I don't even know what is supposed to be "50ccm" ebike, ebikes are limited by laws in regard to their power wattage (250W) and speed (25kmh), not volume.
Specifically EU directive says for pedal assisted ebike is this: "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
Everything else ain't ebike and requires some sort of license. Though of course the reality is police won't be checking every single ebike on road and they have no way to meaure the power.
For example, an ebike in Europe is speed limited to 25kph, and just small motors that can only output 250W.
But in many jurisdictions registering a moped is extremely easy - in MA and VT at least, it’s honor system. In MA you have to go into the RMV but don’t have to have anything beyond the bill of sale and a VIN. VT you can even send in the form, you don’t even have to live in VT.
You usually have to have a learners permit at the very least - sometimes a drivers license. I’m sure there are some places where you need a motorcycle endorsement, but I’m not aware of any in the US.
That's actually what pedal-assist restrictions are all about, clearly delineating the bicycles from the motorbikes. This also manages expectations for users. You shouldn't expect to play in traffic at 60+kmph as a cyclist, and you shouldn't expect to be riding your much heavier, much faster electric moped on bike paths.
The form factors can make that line blurry, you could totally have a bicycle that can do 60+ and you could easily have a moped that looks small enough to be a bicycle. Hence the regulations to clear up any confusion.
From a personal exprience point of view, I would expect to be able to comfortably wear leathers and a moto helmet and not negatively impact the ride. On a pedal assist bicycle there is no way I am wearing leathers and because of that I don't want to be going 60-80kmph in traffic unprotected, I want to be on seperated bike paths.
I'm a long-time motorcyclist, but around the city, I prefer my bicycle. I can go on beautiful bike paths through parks, take breaks along the river, and not worry about a helmet hair. At lower speeds I don't need protective gear. I can carry much more stuff with my saddle bags.
Oh and there are no biannual inspections, no insurance, no petrol. Maintaining a bicycle is a breeze.
In Berlin, bicycle is just better. An electric one would be just as good, even with the EU limitations.
Decades ago, I used to be a bicycle commuter in Somerville, MA (USA). There weren't any usable bike paths, and so cyclists had to use the street and follow traffic rules like any other vehicle—lanes, signaling, etc. Local police enthusiastically enforced the law, and normally expected adult bikes to act as vehicles. Drivers were typical for the Boston area: Aggressive, minimal use of signals, but good awareness.
There was a major 3-lane intersection with roads going (left)/(left+straight)/(straight+right). A safe left turn required moving into and fully occupying the middle lane in traffic, typically sprinting at around 30 km/h. Which is about the top legal speed I've seen for pedal assist. This is not an especially comfortable speed in complex traffic, and I didn't enjoy it. I don't think you'd want lots of unskilled people doing this on ebikes, either. With 30 km/h intersections, you want people to be predictable and to strictly follow all traffic laws. And to be honest, casual cyclists do not reliably follow traffic laws.
On steep, empty roads, I've twice hit about 65 km/h on descents on road bikes. I personally found this unnerving without full motorcycle gear, especially when I encountered poor road conditions on a corner. Never again.
So yeah, an electric moped is a whole different game than a class 1 peddle-assist ebike. 30 km/h accidents can be awful, but 50 km/h accidents can easily turn deadly for the unprotected human body.
There's a pretty strong contradiction here. Nowhere on earth, except maybe North Korea does the traffic actually reflect the law.
And IMO predictability > letter of the law every time.
30km/h at the crest can easily turn into 60+ km/h at the bottom if it's steep.
But basically with light driver this isn't too hard enforcement.
It will be interesting to see how this affects the 50cc and below vehicle class, which require helmets, have a speed limit of 30kph (somewhat enforced, often broken) and are required to make a two-step right turn on larger junctions.
It might be good timing to re-assess the rules for 50cc vehicles. Driving at 30kph while traffic is going past you at double the speed is more dangerous than moving with traffic. Differential speed limits have been shown to be unsafe and modern 50cc scooters can keep up with all but the fastest city traffic.
I've long believed they were all in on hydrogen fuel as the next big thing, because it would preserve their internal combustion tech investment. And, I've long believed that was an existential mistake. They, working with Toyota, could have pulled it off by pouring bucketloads of upfront capital into refueling infrastructure (like Tesla did with their Supercharger network). But they didn't. Pilot projects with short-range delivery vans don't cut it.
It's about time they started working on BEV.
But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems? (No seat height adjustment is evident and they're far too widely spaced to let a rider get any power without rocking back and forth.)
There are plenty of decent e-bikes in this market space. Most of them leverage the existing cycling parts and service capabilities . Honda's coming late to this party.
We shall see.
Doesn't this allow the bike to pass as a 'bicycle' when it comes to restricted pathways or trails?
>There are plenty of decent e-bikes in this market space.
As your comment demonstrates, Honda has long-standing brand loyalty that counts for a lot.
I think now for that category they've dropped the pedal requirement but reduced the speed to 30mph.
I'm not sure about Honda specifically, but in most cases hydrogen cars are actually electric vehicles with hydrogen fuel cells (e.g. Toyota's Mirai[1]), they don’t have hydrogen combustion engines (although there are exceptions, Mazda made some prototypes about 10 years ago).
> But: pedals? pedals with ergonomic problems?
In some countries [2] pedals must be present in order to classify the vehicle as a moped. It's a regulatory requirement and I don't expect most moped riders to use pedals on a daily basis.
[1] https://www.toyota.com/mirai/2022/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped#Individual_countries/reg...
My friends in Paris who use mopeds a lot would definitely miss the carrying capacity, modest as it is. The footboard looks wide enough to place some bags in but not everyone likes that.
(Aside: Thanks for OverlordBot!)
Thanks very much.
We have to bite the bullet and redesign urban environments away from the car.
- seperate lanes and roads for "vulnerable vehicles", for manual vs motor powered.
- license all powered and manual vehicles - treat them all the same. (this most importantly includes insurance. I am a bike rider hit by a car and still not seen a penny. But if I had a giant bureaucratic insurance company on my side it would have been sorted already. And the externality priced in better.
- All the other arguments on StrongTowns, 15 minute cities etc. It's too late for Houston but maybe we can save other towns.
I agree with you philosophically but how would this work in practice? Most US cities that could benefit from urban planning and redesign are that way because they're densely packed car-centric areas.
It's like, if a giant earthquake flattened LA sure, that would be a great excuse to redesign the entire city. But the vast majority of the infra isn't going anywhere, and nobody is gonna float redesigning a city with the level of NIMBY-goodness here.
Practically speaking, a "50cc-rated EV moped" is a great way to, at minimum, start to get people thinking less about cars, in my opinion. It's a necessary bridge to a future that's probably decades away.
I mean, in Europe we've largely repurposed medieval towns to car usage, with much worse constraints in terms of preservation of historical buildings. US cities can be much more radical and much more easily, if they really want to.
That chaos is a feature, not a bug. It's meant to discourage people from using their car. If you keep car usage convenient, people will continue to use their car. Any measure that makes using a car inconvenient is a good thing. Low road throughput, high parking cost, low number of parking spots etc...
I've seen it played out in Paris, which was very much a car city two decades ago, and can now be described as a bike-friendly city: it's far from being on-par with Netherlands standard, but good enough that lots of people chose a bike over other methods of transportation, and cars are generally one of the slowest form of transportation in a city (behind public transit, bikes or other 2-wheelers).
Remove all these lanes. Drop a tramway in the middle, with regular passages (one every 2-5 minutes is a standard in Europe). This serves both for tramways and emergency vehicles, grant them the right to drive here. Couple it with a bike lane on both sides, alongside that tramway line. Leave a single lane, usable for cars (which you really don't want to take anymore since it's become a single lane. Over time, car traffic reduces) and buses (which shouldn't pass by there too much, since you already have a tramway. Not along the whole length, at least, just portions. Congratulations, you've removed the need for a car for anyone alongside that road, going anywhere in a 10 minute radius around it.
Now, that's not much, and that's not all. Other plans have to include considering a small tactical nuke to clear out massive parking spaces for people coming from outside the city, at the extremities of these tramway lines. You really want them to drop that car outside. Then do it again. Start criss crossing. San Vincente Blvd, Western Ave., wherever. Just have the transit system befitting a major city, in a major first world country.
Now, yes, this also takes 30 years to finish, but that's the only way it's ever worked in car centric cities that transformed into tolerable, walkable places.
....cyclist insurance is a thing though? You could have bought one if this is an important consideration for you. And either way, if you have personal liability coverage on your home policy then it covers that kind of thing - so you most likely already have a "giant insurance company" on your side.
Also as much as I agree with you, we need to put up as few barriers to cycling as possible so that people actually cycle.
Like, to give a different example - I think that helmets while cycling should be absolutely mandatory, and they have saved my life at least once. But the Dutch have figured out that making helmets mandatory puts people off cycling enough that it's a net disadvantage - so I'm willing to trust the data on this.
- Is my ride 100% in segregated bike lane: no need for helmet unless you want to be extra safe.
- Is there a chance I'm crossing paths with a car: helmet
(I'm lucky enough to live in a city that has bike lanes that cover most my needs)
Also in the city center it is very rare that you'd go faster than 12/15 mph.
The saying goes - you ride for a season, you fall at least once, no exceptions.
I can't understand people whooshing about at 15, well, 10 mph without any sort of protective gear on 4-inch wheels. This is dangerous as hell, it's basically guaranteed hospitalization if you hit so much as a pile of pigeon shit, not to mention a pothole.
The reason I've never had a serious concussion, broken wrist, etc. has nothing to do with protective equipment, however. It's entirely fall training, from Aikido as a preteen, then Judo as an adult.
BJJ is another way to learn this but I'm serious: this is the one thing which is the most likely to downgrade an accident from dire to serious, or serious to okay. Helmets can keep your skull from cracking, but they do very little to prevent the brain from shaking around, what does, is tucking your chin.
The security of helmets is largely linked to the speed the cyclist bikes at. Lane segregation has little to do with it - on busy cyclist lanes in London, where people go at insane speeds, you really want to have a helmet.
And if you're going around fast bikes, I agree 100%. However in my city center, bike speeds are fairly slow. You can speed but you'll hit a red-light or a crossing tramway so frequently that it doesn't matter.
The only time I ride without my helmet is on my street when I ride slow with my kids.
It works the same as your car insurance - your insurer will pursue the other party and make their insurance pay.
Regardless, even your own car insurance will go up in premiums if you have ever been in an accident, even if it 100% wasn't your fault. It's just how it works, sadly.
Personally I'd keep this one optional, so that cycling can remain an accessible option.
That said, if you get hit by a car, even if it's your own fault, the car driver is held liable; they drive the heavier vehicle, they've had formal training (getting a driver's license here involves 25-50 hours of practical driving lessons with a licensed trainer, a theoretical and a practical exam), and all cars (and most motorized vehicles) are required by law to have a liability insurance in case they cause an accident.
Just as well, even minor fender benders can cost hundreds of euros these days.
I have minimum-legal insurance on my (gas, 1000cc) motorcycle. It costs $99/yr through Geico. If you really wanted, I bet you could get down to $75 with an off-brand insurance supplier and probably lower with a moped. A mild annoyance, but still less than a blue check mark.
Then get insurance? You don't a national registration system to get cycle insurance - it's widely popular and extremely cheap.
This. It's not a matter of money, work or anything material. NA needs to realize it's because of culture. Too much focus on cars.
One thing that really helped all cyclers is that they are protected by law. So if you hit a cycler in your car, you are mostly always in the wrong.
It's never too late. Will it cost a lot of money and effort? Yes. Is it worth it? Absolutely.
edit:
they already do have an on-road version of it :) https://ubco.co.nz/pages/rv
That said, it's a Honda. You can trace the current 50cc and 125cc step through scooters all the way back to the 1960s particularly the engine-frame bolt pattern. This makes interchangeable parts safe to design and manufacture as there's an enormous market for them. You could call them the Chevy small block 350 V8 of motorcycles.
Honda finally releasing a 50cc equivalent electric moped will instantly create an entire sub market of compatible parts and, unlike every other ebike manufacturer out there, Honda will still be there in 20 years, and you'll be able to buy parts for this off the shelf in 120+ counties worldwide.
Like the US, Japan allows people to ride a 50cc (or equivalent ev) moped or scooter on the street (when license plated) with their regular car license, which is why they’re going after this size.
I wanted an electric one, but I was afraid of battery longevity, the good ones cost 3x the price, so I thought I'll buy this one and get an electric one next time. Now there are more electric choices, but range is still limited and they are probably more often targeted by thieves.
It remains to be seen whether mine, now 5 years old, will survive till the next summer and whether I'll buy an electric one next time.
For whatever reason, a 500cc will get messed with a lot less than a 50.
I have a powerful "electric bike." It does the 50cc job well, imo, despite speed and range being lower. I still use my car more, because I can park a car and not worry about it.
When taking my e-bike to a cafe, I strategize parking in advance, worry as I sip and also carry around my helmet & battery. Cars are easier.
Lately, I decided that a jacket and heavy shoes and gloves are necessary. Just because it's legally a bicycle... 50kmh is 50kmh and fingers are important to me.
So, while light motorcycles really are the perfect vehicle in many instances... the thieves guild's policy on vehicles under 100kg really hampers the category.
It'll be interesting to see whether Honda follows Gogoro with swapable batteries, charging infrastructure, sharing apps etc.
These machines look more robust than an e-bicycle: better suited to rental markets, and perhaps in countries with lower quality road infrastructure.
>This brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph and no more than 4kW of power;
for comparison, i have been using an hero electric "optima" bought exactly 3 years ago which has a motor of 250 watts and battery of 1kwh.
https://heroelectric.in/bike/atria-lx/#specs here is an updated version of this.it is still the same insides.
here is my actual usage pattern. 180Kg weight limit and i have consistently pulled 210Kg+ on this.
the battery has severely degraded to a point my first Km range was 50km while today i can only manage 20.
i have used this machine in rain, snow, sun and all the 6 seasons of the valley and has performed admirably.
plus the cost is also around $1000 or less so i don't really see why anyone would need anything more?
sure if you need high speeds and all, you can buy high speed versions
https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/ETr...
datasheet for "etrance+"
https://pureevwebsite.s3.ap-south-1.amazonaws.com/v2/pdf/EPl... datasheet for " epluto" here this is the base model and people pretty much use this as alternatives to regular 110/125cc petrol scooters.
third company selling 250watt scooters
https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/r30/r30/
https://okinawascooters.com/buy-now/book-now/lite/lite/
and these are "hot selling" vehicles and i own epluto and optima (optima is not on website as that was refreshed since) and 210+ as i've already said so yeah
Maybe not even on purpose, the profile in traffic is almost invisible in the morning before sunrise, no-one is looking at the road anymore but rather their phone and no law seems able to stop them without enforcement.
This however has pedals which is all about classifying as a moped.
That's not so practical to do with an e-bike, and certainly not doable with something like this.
Think you could go mountain biking with it?
Spacing and pedal arm length look to me like they'd be very uncomfortable though.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3T_vM3VBI
Who's game?
"cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h [15.5 mph], or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling"
Article doesn't mention electric engine power. Obviously if they would ditch pedals they have no chance.
And I'd say most of the EU countries require regular car license up to <125cc, but yeah, some have lower requirements for <50cc mopeds.
This sounds like class A1 vehicle (up to 125 cm3 for ICE, up to 11 kW engine power, up to 0.1 kW/kg engine power per mass of vehicle)
With my class B license (the usual normal car license most people have), the only two-wheel motor vehicles I'm allowed to operate are class AM mentioned by the parent comment above.
For operating class A1 you need a class A license.
"B licence holders in Czech Republic (only motorcycles with automatic and semi-automatic transmission), Italy, Latvia, Slovakia (after two years and only motorcycles with automatic transmission), Spain (after three years), Poland (after three years), Portugal (at least 25 years old or additional licence for mopeds), and Belgium (after two years) are allowed to drive motorcycles not exceeding 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) within the respective countries."
So roguhly 1/3 of EU population is fine just with B license. In other countries you just need few hours of training.
You can't 'fail' CBT and any motorcycle instructor / downtrained instructor can write you a certificate once you have completed the required steps and are deemed competent. This takes half a day to a day and has to include 2 hours of supervised riding on the road
Many people who don't want to ride bikes with more than 125cc never get their A license and just retake the CBT every 2 years. Most delivery drivers or parking wardens etc. I have seen do this too
Not sure if the EU is similar or not
And the specs mentioned in the artikle "...his brake layout again confirms that the bike is intended to fit the “50cc” moped category, with a top speed of 28 mph(~45 km/h) and no more than 4kW of power"
And if they don't care about license then more than 1/3 of Europe (population) have A1 already with B license anyway, so why use pedals then, this seems like really odd niche for teenagers, since if you are adult you either have B license (and pretty good odds having A1 anyway, so you have much higher limits) and you can drive electric motorbike without pedals or don't have any license and you are not gonna make AM specifically to ride this moped, if they wanted to target the group without license they should add pedals (which they did) and weak 0.25kW electric engine (which, they won't), so this is really motorbike for teenagers, otherwise they should ditch pedals and can put there stronger engine if it's intended for adults.
But AM vehicle category don't require pedals, so the pedals seem pointless.
1 kWh motorized bicycles do not require a license or vehicle registration here. You just need liability insurance on your bike.
Bikes which you described with 25kph/250W limit
Class 2 moped: 25kph/1kW - traffic insurance, license
Class 1 moped: 45kph/4kW - traffic insurance, license plate, license
A motorized bicycle (L1e-A) is allowed to power the motor regardless of pedalling and can do up to a 1 kW of continuous power and 25 km/h. A two-wheeled moped (L1e-B) can do 4 kW of continuous power and 45 km/h.