Hacker News Reader

Comment by pokepim | Hacker News Reader

Not common among white collar friends. Many people I talked with are more likely to run than defend the country which day by day is ruined by conservative and corrupted politicians

View on HN

So your white collar friends are going to sit and enjoy life while the good times roll but flee the second hard times come? If I had a friend that only came over for a BBQ and couldn't be bothered to help me in a time of need, that isn't a friend...

Sounds like there are deeper issues than "conservative" politics in the nation.

Not having any relation to Poland, I perfectly understand them. You only get one life, and many of us have other priorities (like their family's well-being) other than being torn to pieces under artillery fire because the corrupted politicians preferred to look the other way and feed the monster, while ignoring so many omens over the past 20+ years.

Here in East politicians did a pretty good job to prepare for the monster. Unfortunately some businesses did feed it. But that’s a drop in a bucket compared to West monster-building.

Kinda sucks to run away to those who did feed the monster who ate your country that did try to stop it.

> So your white collar friends are going to sit and enjoy life while the good times roll but flee the second hard times come.

Seems reasonable. Why would anyone want to spend their last moments bleeding out from avoidable violence?

> If I had a friend that only came over for a BBQ and couldn't be bothered to help me in a time of need, that isn't a friend

For many people the modern relation with the state can be mediated through nationalistic fervor or through comparison of services provided. You seem to see it through the former, so you'll need to exercise some empathy to see the latter.

As one of those white collars in Poland, I think some of that hesitancy against defending your country is because current ruling party seems very anti-intellectual and it seems like a lot of country supports them, so intellectuals think "If they wan't tnis, let them have it with all the consequences". Me: I'm preparing to defend my country, but it's no use if I'm just sent to meat grinder by incompetent politician-ass-kissing generals.

> ...but flee the second hard times come?

For the US and most of the rest of the world, when the 0.01% families are fighting, dying in droves, and seeing their wealth, bodies, minds and souls shattered along with the rest of us, sure I'll consider defending my home even though that happens to temporarily align with their interests [1] [2] [3].

But until then, the elite bought it, the elite broke it, the elite are welcome to defend it. Don't include me in an armed forces that only ever enforces elite demands when I empirically, functionally have not had a proportionally effective political voice my entire voting life. Not my monkey, not my circus.

[1] https://www1.udel.edu/htr/Psc105/Texts/power.html

[2] https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2...

[3] https://www.vox.com/2014/4/18/5624310/martin-gilens-testing-...

I would not call people who rule (current nor previous) "elite". Elites were mass murdered during WWII and later during communism, people who rule now have nothing to do with elites.

Leaving out these semantics, choosing which side to join in a war in this modern age is the wrong question to ask. Wars have overwhelmingly historically benefited only the leaders of a nation. Look at how veterans around the world are treated, the war's "benefits" even in the "victor" nation most certainly did not accrue to them in proportion to the risks they undertook.

Unless you are in the leadership, the risk reward calculus for joining a war is almost always tilted greatly against your individual favor. The greater good reward has to be sufficiently compelling to functionally throw away my life in full knowledge leadership will benefit by far more proportionally than I will. That's why I'm grateful there are others with a far lower bar willing to go serve. They are better souls than mine.

I want to see wars invert the sacrifices. When war is launched, leadership, their families and their closest associates and families are the first to die. Those on the "front lines" are the last to die. When the decision to go to war is made, I want the decision to be instantly up close and viscerally personal for the decision makers.

Agree with everything you say. I mentioned WWII because during WWII Polish elites were systematically slaughtered by both invaders (Nazi Germans and Soviet Russia) - example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion, but also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre act of mass murdering of Polish officers who were mostly coming from Polish elites...

I have very similar thoughts about wars, I believe the mainstream narratives are only sliding on the surface of real underlying reasons behind wars.

I guess people learn from history, and Polish history teaches sad lesson that Poland seems to be a good candidate for another WWII experience where there are no victorious... To Polish politicians I would have one thing to say, send your kids to fight and do not push whole country to the war nobody wants.

No one pushes for anything agressive in Poland - the only narrative is that we and baltics should be ready to defend ourselves.

Run where?

hm... so by that logic, is Zelensky one of the most "corrupt and conservative" politician out there?

Well, Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe after Russia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

But it's never just a single leader like "Zelensky" it's the whole system and a big group of people. But at least Zelensky is trying to fight corruption by restoring the anti-corruption laws and planning other reforms because that's some of the conditions to get more money from the west. But of course now the war complicates things even more...

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics-2/zelensky-plans-a...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com