Are Modern Bicycles the End of DIY Maintenance? | Hacker News Reader

Are Modern Bicycles the End of DIY Maintenance?

outsideonline.com

38 pointscainxinth117 comments

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No.

Honestly, I don't mean to be negative, but this article is grossly misrepresenting the actual situation.

The actual problems the author of the article encountered/mentioned were that:

1) He was unfamiliar with how to use/maintain an electronic drivetrain, because he didn't have experience with one.

2) He sometimes doesn't have the right tool for the job.

The truth is that bicycles are _amazingly_ user reparable. Even the latest and greatest that use electronic shifting. And in comparison to other complex consumer goods, very accessible in terms of manufacturer support, and the information available to end users.

I've actually had an easier time understanding, calibrating and maintaining my electronic drivetrain (SRAM GX AXS, not the same one the op was having issues with) than I ever did with a traditional drivetrain. But probably because I'm more comfortable with electronics than mechanical things.

The one exception to the "totally user maintainable" rule are some components of electric bicycles, which (at least as far as batteries and some motorized components go) can be restricted by manufacturers as to what the end user can do.

Don't get me wrong. There are still plenty of things that I trust my bike mechanic to do that I won't do myself, but only because I don't have the time or focus to learn how to do them properly. Not because modern bicycles are somehow inaccessible.

Alternate title: "Fred wants to swap Di2 onto his non Di2 bike"

Totally agreed though. I'm a cyclist and DIY is pretty simple, even on Di2. It's just that the author of this thread got in way over their head and wanted to do something that isn't straightforward... I wouldn't even call it maintenance. This is like the euqivalent of wondering why you can't swap your FWD Civic to AWD without a mechanic's help.

This Di2 Dura Ace drivetrain sells for what, $4,000? And he's putting it on his entry-level gravel bike. He's confused about fully internal routing maintenace costing more? It's way harder to do internal routing but gives aero gains and looks nice. It's very much a "top tier bike" kinda thing. Like being surprised that your Ferrari costs more to do an oil change.

It scares me that OP is a former bike shop mechanic and doesn't get this.

It's not that bikes are getting too hard to work on, it's that the $12,000 bike he's trying to part out to add to his entry-level 'prosumer' gravel bike just doesn't make any sense.

If you want a top tier bike that's easy to work on, Specialized Aethos is great.

I converted a Di2 frame to cable shifting. It took some time to source the proprietary cable stops and BB cable guide. The guide proved to be useless as it didn't prevent contact with the frame so I had to resort to 3D printing something more functional. The average person won't be able to deal with all the subtle incompatibilities modern bikes have.

What about hydraulic brakes, though? These require specialized tools to maintain, which are so expensive that no amateur will afford them (for the rare occasions).

I think it's the only component that I wouldn't know how to adjust/fix on my new bicycle, where previously I feel I could have handled everything (but it was a simply fixed gear bicycle).

Reading some other comments, I get the feeling that adjusting hydraulic brakes may not actually be tricky, so it's probably just the novelty for me.

I don't think it's that hard. I have Magura HS22 hydraulic brakes and installed them myself with regular tools. I haven't had to refill the fluid yet but the instructions seems pretty straightforward:

https://www.magura.com/media/1729/hs_2016_en_web_03.pdf

I'd concede that the bleed kit and mineral oil aren't things you can have around, though.

I had to bleed the rear brake of my bike because when I was changing the pads discovered one was much worn that the other, and in the process a piston went out and the liquid leaked.

Once I could got the necessary stuff it was a fairly easy process.

I think you're overstating it as you're not sure what it takes to maintain them, but they're definitely self-serviceable and affordably as well, it should all be in the service manual you got with your bike.

I would personally say that a fluid bleeder and seal picks/hooks are pretty universal tools, handy to have around. Hydraulics have been around for decades too, it's a very ubiquitous technology.

Even for crimping lines you can get pretty affordable tools, but I will concede that crimping new hydraulic lines is probably not that common of a task around the house.

On the expensive part Decathlon sell DOT or Mineral oil kits for 35e.

Recently changed oil on mine had a bit of help and it was tricky/finicky but nothing impossible.

As mentionned in another comment, there is so much information available online.

> What about hydraulic brakes, though? These require specialized tools to maintain, which are so expensive that no amateur will afford them (for the rare occasions).

What expensive specialized tools would you need for hydraulic brakes? Maybe I haven't kept up with very latest models, but I've had hydraulic brakes on my bikes for nearly 20 years now and I do all my own maintenance. I haven't needed and don't have any expensive specialized tools for it.

Those specialized tools cost between $20 and $100, depending on the brand and whether you want pro-level "do this several times a day" quality, or end-user "do this once or twice a year" quality.

Hardly "so expensive no amateur will afford them".

>These require specialized tools to maintain, which are so expensive that no amateur will afford them (for the rare occasions).

An amateur can't afford a $50 bleed kit?

Bikes are much easier to maintain than they have been in the past. Mechanical 1x drive trains are much easier to fine tune than anything with a front derailleur. I'll take cable actuated disk brakes over cantilever brakes any day of the year. Outboard bearing bottom brackets are much simpler than square tapered bottom brackets - I never want to see a crank puller ever again in my life. Threaded stems always felt like a kludge.

Many more specialized parts of bikes: suspension (especially rear), tubeless tires, electronic shifting are optional. If you spend $10,000+ on a bike, there may be some parts that are more persnickety than others to a garage wrench turner.

The one good tool to get to make things go much more smoother is an accurate torque wrench for things like bottom bracket installation. If you've got fancy carbon parts (which I do not), you need another, smaller one for smaller nm of torque(s).

Also, what are we comparing bike to? They're easier than a motorcycle, and much of a motorcycle is easy enough to work on at home if you have the curiosity. What modern bike parts are (which I'll concede) in many cases are more delicate. I don't like how thin my 11spd chain is compared to the 9spd I started out with, and I don't like how sensitive to wear the entire drivetrain is either, but thems the breaks. Proper cleaning and lubing is just that much more important.

If you spend $10,000+ on a bike

Holy shit, people do this? Around here used steel frame bicycles from the 80s with a Shimano 600 are €350 if in good condition. And the fact that they are from the 80s and in good condition tells us something about maintainablility of those bicycles.

In Boulder, CO (where you'll pay million+ for a starter home) I see custom titanium bikes built by local frame builders used as grocery getters, so $10,000 is not the high end here. $10,000 is what you'd see at the masters club ride if you were low rent.

The used bike market here is totally nuts - I would say you could get at least 2x the price for a well maintained Shimano 600 here. There's probably an even bigger add-on to the price because it's "vintage".

A good electric cargo bike can go up to 10k.

One of those can pretty much replace a car for a family and will run practically free for a decade. You can fit two kids and groceries in it easily.

One of those can pretty much replace a car for a family

When we went on our 4000km trip to southern France this summer, me and my family had to decide between our station wagon and a cargo bike. We decided on the station wagon, because we were not sure if there would be charging points every 30 kilometers along the way.

Having toured France on a bike, I couldn't remember a time when there was more than 30km between towns, so it should be theoretically possible. Although this was before eBikes took off, so I never learned the proper, French way to ask to use a plug in a civilized manner. I guess you could always stop into a McDonalds. Could bringing along an extra battery pack have been an option?

I'm pretty sure you don't do 4000km trips to southern France every week?

You can easily rent any car you want with the money you saved by using the cargo bike for daily needs =)

$10,000+ is the price range for e-bikes and ultralight AXS/Di2 configurations. About the only aspect comparable to the €350 bike you describe is they have two vastly different wheels.

Steel framed bicycles from the 80s...

Sure, they are reliable, just as older diesel engines are reliable. But they are noisy, heavily polluting, and weak (I mean the diesel engines, of course!).

Compare an 80s bike - no matter which discipline - to a mid-level bike today, and the difference is stunning. Almost all parts have changed significantly, and for good reason. One thing is that they are much lighter, and because of this they wear quicker. But ride a modern road bike with a carbon frame, you will never want to go back to your 80s bike, however reliable it is...

Maintainability? Sure, if you have hidden cables it sucks, and press-fit BBs and headsets do require special tools - but how often do you need to service them? The parts that wear are super easy to maintain, in some cases easier than that 80s bike...

btw. $10k is the "supercar" territory - just as there are people that pay $500k for a car, why is it surprising?

>Sure, if you have hidden cables it sucks, and press-fit BBs and headsets do require special tools

Press-fit BBs are going the way of the dodo. Newer bikes have been moving to threaded BBs for years now, because of all the problems press-fit ones had.

> Around here used steel frame bicycles from the 80s

I mean that's not any kind of comparison. Sure, I sold my steel frame hybrid from 1992 for $120 recently, it was still a great bike. But not comparable a new bike from today.

That said, the prices for new bike are insane and I don't fully understand why they are well over $10K.

The prices of those other two wheelers, motorcycles, are far cheaper even though they contain far more mechanical complexity! The MSRP for a Kawasaki Ninja 400 is $4300, so how can a bicycle cost $10K-$15K!

Completely agree. My childhood nightmare from maintaining my cheap commuter bike was the old crank-arm attachment system with wedges (or "cotters", I just learned [0]). I used a mallet to get them out, and with my low level of control it took a bit of luck to not bend the thread.

Also, back then there was no ways to get parts: I could go to the local bikeshop, but the selection was small and the markup on spares was insane. Replacing a drivetrain (as I now do every second year) would probably cost more than a new bike. These days I can order parts and tools at incredible prices and have them delivered the next day.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotter_(pin)

Never had to replace a cottered crank, thankfully - those looked primitive! Certainly a few around - always fun to revive an old rig, and single speed/fixed gears were en vogue!

This article confuses modern with high end. The ultra high end of cycles is just like the ultra high end of auto mobiles. There are bespoke tools and techniques required for maintenance. The average bike sold today is probably easier to maintain that those of the past. Disc brakes don't come out of alignment as bad, aluminum frames don't rust, rims are far stronger, etc...

Spot on. This is the equivalent of OP being surprised his Ferrari has expensive and difficult maintenance. The bike he's swapping parts for retails for ~12k USD

Indeed. 10k for a bike is what, 10-20 times the price of a 'normal' bike, just as a Ferrari is 10-20 times the price of a normal car.

Agreed, and I think a lot of people find themselves with high end cycles by using price as a buying guide. Relatively speaking it's a smaller purchase than say a car, so it's easy to end up with more bike than you needed.

You know what has changed in bikes since I was fiddling with them as a teenager in the late 90s? YouTube.

Got back in to riding bikes, got a bit sick of paying for some iffy service but being unable to articulate why I was unhappy and decided to do my own work.

Every single thing that you could possibly imagine needing to be done is on YouTube. Back when I was a kid it was a case of ask my friend’s dad how to adjust the deraileur and getting it horribly wrong.

One other thing that has really changed for the better is lighting. With the development of LEDs, lithium batteries and hub dynamos this is literally a difference like night and day. I remember once pressing a rim dynamo into the spokes while trying to switch on the light while riding, which resulted in a spectacular somersault.

LED lighting has actually regressed from the halogen systems available 15 years ago. You're expected to shell out $300+ for high end systems that don't match the performance of what much cheaper halogens could do. Couple that with the near universal dishonesty about specs and it's a consumer nightmare.

It's wild that disc brakes are on his bad list (for home mechanics).

Changing the brake pads and burping the lines are both trivial to do yourself. Changing disc pads might actually be easier than changing rim pads.

It's wild? Disc brake maintenance absolutely sucks.

I like them, they're critical to mountain biking, but to say they're trivial to service? Not sure I can agree with you at all?

Do you work on larger vehicles like cars, trucks or motorcycles? Compared to the brakes on my car the disc brakes on my bicycle are trivially easy.

Why would you compare disc brakes to cars? Why not compare them to the rim brakes they are replacing. An order of magnitude more complicated to maintain

I've gone far into the depths of hell trying to properly set up a pair of cantilever brakes to be performative. Disk brakes any day.

> I've gone far into the depths of hell trying to properly set up a pair of cantilever brakes to be performative.

This! I thought I'd never have to see cantilever brakes again until turns out they were used on kids bikes so had to deal with that. Luckily my child has now grown to a slightly larger bike with hydraulic disk brakes so life is back to being easy on that front.

Bleeding brakes still sucks and requires specific tools. Cars are worse but bikes aren't particularly easy. You need more than a screwdrive and an allen wrench.

If we really want to bring self-maintenance back we're going to have to have more gumption than this, and perhaps a special tool every now and then.

The issue we're fighting isn't the battle against hard maintenance vs easy maintenance, it's against manufacturers deliberately making products that are expendable and not intended to be maintained. Hydraulic brakes are perfectly maintainable, you can even rebuild the whole system at home with a $6 pair of seal picks and a $12 seal kit, don't even need to be OEM seals.

The easiest thing to maintain is cable actuated disc brakes. Changing the pads is trivial and no bleed kit is necessary. The performance is much better than v-brakes as well. Of course, if you want performance hydraulic disc brakes are necessary fo mountain biking.

Bleeding my SRAM brakes requires a special kit that costs $90 [1], working with toxic chemicals (DOT 5.1 fluid), and a procedure that isn't rocket science but I wouldn't call it trivial either [2]. I also find that disc brake pads wear much faster than rim brake pads (I'm on my 3rd set this year), and cost more to replace too. They also are prone to alignment issues and I find myself messing around with them at least once a month to correct rubbing or noise issues. And god forbid you do something really dumb like squeezing the brake while the wheel is detached (guilty) - causing the piston to pop out and fluid to leak everywhere.

Compared to my other bike with rim brakes that I only had to change the brake pads once and turn the barrel adjuster a few times in several years, I would say that disc brakes are much more troublesome to maintain. I think they are worth it for riders who do a lot of descending, especially in the rain, but would definitely not recommend for someone just getting into cycling.

[1] https://a.co/d/im4bOVh

[2] https://youtu.be/8K4ADjuxEqc

Sounds like you’ve got other issues, you shouldn’t need to replace pads or make adjustments that often.

This source says:

> You can generally expect to get 500-700 miles out of resin disc brake pads and 1,000-1,250 miles out of sintered metal disc brake pads. However, how much mileage you end up getting out of your disc brake pads will depend on the weather conditions you ride in, riding terrain, and your braking habits.

That seems a little low to me, but roughly in line with what I have seen. What is your experience?

Forgot to link the actual source of those estimates [1].

Also, in regards to the alignment issues, Chris Froome has also complained of similar issues [2] with disc brakes. He’s a seven time Grand Tour champion, is on the board of Factor bikes, has an army of professional mechanics to maintain his bikes for him - and he still runs into issues. So not just me.

[1] https://prodifycycling.com/bike-disc-brake-guide/

[2] https://road.cc/content/tech-news/chris-froome-still-has-dis...

1. SRAMs bleed kit is nice, but there are many affordable kits. 2. DOT 5.1 fluid isn’t dangerous, just protect your eyes and immediately wipe it off paint or skin. 3. Write down the bleeding instructions as a checklist. 4. Most disc noise can be quickly solved by using a rag on the rotors or pads. 5. If you have frequent rotor alignment issues then the wheel likely needs truing.

> I think they are worth it for riders who do a lot of descending, especially in the rain, but would definitely not recommend for someone just getting into cycling.

I think this is the takeaway worth reflecting on. Hydraulic brakes are perfectly maintainable if you can be even slightly bothered, but it is a choice you're making to take that responsibility on. As far as adjacent skills required for the hobby of cycling is very approachable, but that said if you want to go mountain-biking and you want hydraulic brakes, you get to make that choice.

> I also find that disc brake pads wear much faster than rim brake pads (I'm on my 3rd set this year)

This seems to be a user error, because the exact opposite is usually true. Rims are much closer to the ground, and therefore are much easier contaminated with mud etc.

> squeezing the brake while the wheel is detached (guilty) - causing the piston to pop out and fluid to leak everywhere.

Again, user error. Just a simple lever pull does not do this, you have to deliberately pump the levers for some time for the pistons to pop. (Actually, simply removing the wheel should not even cause this because it is the brake pad itself that pushes the pistons back, not the rotor.)

And if you don't like toxic chemicals, there are many brakes that have mineral oil in them, which is not toxic and super easy to work with...

> This seems to be a user error, because the exact opposite is usually true. Rims are much closer to the ground, and therefore are much easier contaminated with mud etc.

It’s odd that you would assume user error despite knowing almost nothing about the gear I’m using or conditions that I’m riding in. Do a bit of searching online and you’ll see some people claim disc brakes last longer [1], and some people claim rim brakes last longer [2]. My personal experience is that rim brakes last considerably longer - and I think that’s mainly just due to the fact that they are so much thicker than disc brakes. I get about 2000km on my disc brakes vs 4000km on my rim brakes. How much mileage do you get on disc vs rim brakes?

[1] https://wheretheroadforks.com/disc-brakes-vs-rim-brakes-pros...

[2] https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/1142311-how-long-do-you...

> How much mileage do you get on disc vs rim brakes?

Mileage isn't comparable for brake wear, what matters is time spent braking.

I'm on the first set of rim brake pads on my 2006 road bike, probably over 10K miles! But that's because it's a road bike where I do long rides mostly in steady state, sometimes hours without braking. So the miles and years go by without much brake wear.

On my mountain bikes I get 2-3 years out of the disk brake pads, not sure of mileage but it'll be low. My average MTB ride is 5-8 miles vs. my average road bike ride of 50-70 miles.

Out of this I wouldn't say the rim brakes last longer, it's just that on the mountain bike I'm constantly on the brakes, often hard, so it's not even remotely comparable.

That said, hydraulic disk brakes are pretty much an absolute requirement on a mountain bike if you're riding in any kind of terrain, so it's a moot point. I wouldn't want a rim brake mountain bike even if you paid me to drive it!

Whereas on a road bike I don't care either way, the brakes aren't that important.

Yup, for what it’s worth I ride a road bike in a mountainous area - so my brakes see a lot of use. The 2000km vs 4000km estimates above are for similar riding conditions on both bikes.

I agree that disc brakes are more important for mountain bikes than road bikes. Disc brakes certainly feel nicer to use, but about the only time that rim brakes feel insufficient to me on a road bike is descending in the rain. And even then it’s manageable if I just maintain a slower speed on the descent.

Rim brakes are downright deadly on a road bike if you have carbon rims and are descending.

FWIW, my Shimanos use mineral oil. There's a little funnel you attach at the handlebars, and flick the lines to burp them. I've had this bike for a decade, and I can't remember the last time I had to do more than that to keep the lever feel strong.

The pads are held in place by a cotter key, so it's impossible to misalign them. You couldn't move them if you wanted to.

>Bleeding my SRAM brakes requires a special kit that costs $90 [1], working with toxic chemicals (DOT 5.1 fluid)

This is why you don't buy SRAM. Shimano (which is a much bigger mfgr) only uses mineral oil. And there's lots of 3rd-party kits that cost a fraction of that.

Either you do a LOT of riding to need to replace your pads that often, or SRAM pads really suck. I haven't changed my pads on my Shimano-equipped bikes yet, and one of them is 4 years old. I certainly haven't had alignment issues, unlike my old rim-brake bikes that needed constant fiddling to stop rubbing.

I’ve ridden about 7,000km so far this year (about 5,000km on the sram disc brakes). Most of that is in the mountains, so I use the brakes quite a bit. I’m also not the lightest rider in the world. As mentioned elsewhere, I get about 2000km on the front brake pads, whereas I’d estimate I got double that on rim brakes. I’m curious how many miles have you put into your brake pads, and in what sort of conditions?

Also as mentioned in another comment, there’s a video of Chris Froome complaining about pretty much the same alignment issues that I’ve experienced. So I don’t think it’s just me. I believe he was on Shimano at the time.

I would have preferred Shimano but at the time we were in the midst of a bikepocalypse and SRAM was all that was available in my size/target budget.

>I’m curious how many miles have you put into your brake pads

I don't know: my bike doesn't have an odometer. I've never seen one that did.

It's not uncommon to use a GPS to log rides. Before GPS became commonplace, there were cycling computers that could estimate your distance based on the number of revolutions your wheel made (as measured by either a magnet on a spoke passing over a sensor, or an accelerometer).

People using bikes as daily transportation don't normally use this stuff.

The issue isnt just maintenance - its a lot of specialist parts will have a shelf life of 5-10 years then you will be lucky to find them. An example being with custom headsets on frames - you'll not get a replacement and the frame will be end of life

I don't know. There have always been custom headsets, and they can be replaced pretty easily if not like for like. I personally find modern bikes easier to maintain. It's good to be aware of specialist parts but even Shimano hardware can be hard to source sometimes.

At least Shimano stamps a part number on most all of its parts. I work on a lot of vintage stuff and need to do a lot of guess-work, cutting or measuring to predict/force compatibility of parts.

It's not just finding replacements in the future. It's about stocking a reasonable workshop with tools and spare parts today given the diversity of bikes.

I have 2 bikes, my wife and son each have one. Four bikes total and each one uses a different bottom bracket standard, rim and tire size, headset, seatpost diameter, hub diameter or attachment (QR vs thru), and different suspension systems. I need custom tools/parts for all of them. Heaven forbid our friends and neighbors come over asking for some bike maintenance help - because their bike has uses a fifth standard for all of the above.

I'm an aspiring home machinist. I smell opportunity.

A good headset usually outlives the bike its installed on, in my experience. Fairly simple things if threadless, and a lot of threaded had loose bearings you could find to replace easily. (If it's damaged tho I can see you being out of luck)

I'm just contemplating how much I've spent on tools for various repairs to my house, and that's generally just woodwork. "At least $200 in tools" doesn't sound like the end of DIY.

$200 in tools sounds like a starting point!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M12-FUEL-SURGE-12V-Lit... in fact, is almost exactly $200, and if I were buying today it'd be the first thing I grabbed.

Milwaukee is also pretty high end, and Fuel is their top tier gear. Definitely not needed for basic home repairs and work.

My recco to people is Ryobi from Direct Tools Outlet on sale, easy to find sales on Ryobi and it works well for the price.

If you break the tool, congrats, you can upgrade to the top tier model. But no need to start with Milwaukee Fuel.

Regardless, I agree that $200 for tools isn't that crazy, especially for specific use cases like bleeding hydraulic brakes.

Yeah Ryobi is good - but there a specifically is a hydraulic driver which just does so much and so well.

I’d get it on sale of course.

Agreed. Also, you don't probably need highest-end tools (e.g. most expensive chisels) as a family handyman. I've come to conclude that once you're good with sharpening, even lower-end tools do the job just fine on most "home improvement" cases.

First blame the man, not the tool, as always.

The best middle ground seems to be buying well-kept professional tools second hand, though. It is also strangely enjoyable to hunt for these online.

My rule for tools is:

1) Buy the second cheapest one (Don't get the shittiest no-brand one, but just above it)

2) If you reach the limits of the tool or it breaks down from using it so much, get the best

The only things I've reached step 2 is my hammer drill and circular saw. Both went from corded to cordless.

Still on step 1 with my 3D Printer, for example =)

The problem with bike tools is half of them are stuff you’ll need every 5 years and it just makes no sense to buy yourself when for less than the cost of the tool you can get someone at the bike store to do it.

You know, we have Maker spots where there's lots of equipment available for people to use to make whatever project they're working on without having to buy all the specialized tools. Why not let people rent a bay at a shop dedicated for bicycle maintenance and repair? They'd have all the tools and parts you need to come on in and do it yourself.

No, and also you can just get a steel frame and take basic care of it and then you'll have a steel frame to pass on to your kids. I ride a bike that's 30 years my senior.

Exactly, you can still get rim brakes if you want (I don't), mechanical shifting (I do) etc.

While I disagree that hydraulic brakes are a significant hurdle for home mechanics having learned to bleed hydraulic car brakes at 12 years old, and the author is probably wrong about electronic shifting as well, the fact is all these technologies are purely optional. I ride several thousand miles a year on bikes, road and mountain, with rim brakes and mechanical shifting, and have never felt the need to "upgrade." Apart from the fork and seatpost on one of my road bikes, there's also no carbon fiber anywhere to be found. I don't ride competitively (and most competitive riders don't personally maintain their racing bikes), but in the groups I ride with my bikes are the "lowest tech" and always the oldest, usually by a decade or two, and I'm almost never the slowest in the group.

That being said, many people like the newest technology, be that bikes, cars, cell phones, whatever, and that's fine. This same article could have been written (and was, many times) about integrated index shifters when they came out over 30 years ago (Shimano STI in particular, as Campy Ergopowers, at least Record, are rebuildable, if you can find spare parts for your 25 year old Titanium Record 9 Speed shifters). One of my road bikes, with well over 10k miles on it, has the original Shimano 105 levers, still kicking. Yes, if they break, I will probably not be able to repair them, but I also can't repair a broken aluminum chainring, I just get a new one.

E-bikes are a bit of a different story, but that's largely because of ignorance and fear of electricity and how it works more than anything else. It may prove to deter some people from getting their hands dirty on their bike, which is a shame, but if you just look at the size of the e-scooter hacking community, that should put to rest the notion that it's an absolute barrier to entry.

Like other said the article mixes several different things and I don't agree that all of them make bike maintanance more difficult.

Take the electronic shifting. SRAM electronic components for example are super easy to swap, no cables, just remove chain and screw off the derailleur and it's in you hand.

Similarly getting disc brakes adjusted, can often mean to just loosen the bolts hold the brake and tighten, some of the former rim brakes were an absolute pain in comparison.

Bottom bracket standards he is right about, way too many manufacturers came up with their own, although I disagree that this is about pressfit (it's easy to make your own tools for fitting pressfit bbs).

The big one is internal cable routing especially with many new integrated cockpits. I think what we are see here is the limited engineering skill that exists at bike manufacturers. In contrast to automotive where a lot more thought would have gone into the design, they just put something "aero" together without thinking about the implications. Things therefore will take a number of iterations.

>Bottom bracket standards he is right about, way too many manufacturers came up with their own

No, he's wrong about this one too. He used to be right, 5-10 years ago. The bike makers finally saw the light with the ridiculous proliferation of BB standards, and also gave up on pressfit (it caused more problems than it solved, and also the factories just don't have good enough manufacturing tolerances for pressfit brackets to be trouble-free), so they've all been moving to a single threaded BB standard now.

That's simply incorrect, just because Trek and Specialized are using t47 does not mean it's now the new standard. In fact it's just the opposite, just another standard.

You're also wrong about it being better. Yes manufacturers have terrible quality control, that's because the big brands outsource to the cheapest manufacturer, buy frames for ~$100 and sell them for $4000 with completely crooked BBs. However screw in BBs don't really help, problems just show up later (which is to their advantage). Pressfit BBs are superior in every way if manufacturers actually followed the specs.

I would like to see internal gear hubs and belt drives available in more bikes [1]. I have a ebike with a 3-speed internal hub that has been an absolute delight to own. While maybe not easier to work on yourself - they require so much less maintanence that I think a lot of people would could really benefit from them. I see so many people here riding around on creaky chains and improperly tensioned derailleurs, it makes my stomach churn!

And not just for "upright" bikes either. I think an 11-speed hub in a hybrid bike would be enough for lot of recreational riders. Or even a "gravel" bike with drop bars and an internal hub would could make for a pretty interesting go-anywhere, do-anything sort of bike.

[1] https://www.cyclingabout.com/shimano-alfine-explained-intern...

It’s not what you’re asking for, but the recent Scott Spark series integrates the rear shock into the carbon frame compartment, which is a neat invention.

Too much integration, and proprietary interfaces between modules, when there even are any, are the big problems here, and it's not just bicycles, but nearly everything.

We need to stick with, or go back to, modular assemblies of parts with standard interfaces.

I would say the bicycle is still an incredible shining example of standard interfaces working at a near universal level, given there's a billion bicycles in the world, so some variation in part sizes is to be expected. I'm not sure if I can think of a more universally modular tool for transportation that is as complex as the bicycle.

I agree, and desktop PC are another reasonable example, but it seems even these examples are under threat from this trend toward tighter integration and proprietary standards.

As a city (Amsterdam) bike rider I still shy away from needlessly expensive or complicated technology like hydraulic disc brakes. But internal routing is very much worth the complexity here where cables get caught up in other people's steers in crowded bicycle racks.

I hadn't even heard of electronic shifters, though I guess once you go for an electric bike that wouldn't be a big step anymore.

So, yeah, over here I think most bikes are still pretty simple; except for the slowly increasing amount of electronic bikes. But they are still by far a minority. Although as a mechanic perhaps you'll run into them more often?

>As a city (Amsterdam) bike rider I still shy away from needlessly expensive or complicated technology like hydraulic disc brakes

Disc brakes aren't complicated or needless. However, Amsterdam is flat as a pancake, and speeds are low, so you're able to get away with those shitty coaster brakes on all the bikes there; disc brakes would probably be overkill, and coaster brakes don't have the problems with weather that rim brakes have (Amsterdam is wet, and rim brakes are ineffective when it's very wet). Also, all the bikes I saw in Amsterdam were simple one-person bikes, not heavy e-bikes with child seats.

If you had big hills there, disc brakes would be basically a necessity. Here in Tokyo, all the new mamachari (bikes for mothers, with 2 child seats) are heavy e-bikes with disc brakes. It's not mountainous here but we do have hills.

The article opens with a somewhat moot point. The Factor Ostro VAM mentioned is a pro bike and costs around $10,000 - so it's no wonder that it also requires professional screwdrivers and the corresponding tools.

At least it is still the case that if my bike needs something beyond my skill/toolset, I can go to any good bike shop in my area. I’m not dependent on the manufacturer.

Bleeding hydraulic disc brakes is a pretty daunting task, involving specialized tools, messy and possibly corrosive fluid, and just a lot of work. If they weren't essentially required for running wider tires/rims, I would avoid them entirely.

Electronic shifting on the other hand is super easy, especially now that you can go full wireless. Definitely easier than say, setting up and adjusting a mechanical front derailleur.

A Universal bleed kit from decathlon costs what, 30 euros? And another 20 for a big bottle of oil?

Personally I find it a lot easier than adjusting dérailleurs and stuff like that, you just push the bubbles out and job done

There have never been derailleurs in brakes AFAIR.

I meant relative to other bike maintenance tasks, not specifically brakes :)

What's daunting about it? On a motorcycle at least you can do it with some 3/16" hose, scissors or a knife, wrench, plenty of paper tower, and a waste container (soda bottle).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twgmmQ7Livw

The specialized tools just make it faster/easier.

It’s straightforward and rarely messy at all. Doing a partial bleed typically takes less than 15 minutes. Sometimes longer if air really gets trapped. And low-end bleed kits cost $20-30.

If you think bleeding is daunting, wait until you need to disassemble a caliper or lever to fix a stuck piston.

I don’t think that’s hard either, which is why I disagree with the author. Most maintenance and assembly is documented and easy to learn. I only come close to getting an aneurism when truing or building damaged/uncooperative wheels.

It is the fact that in almost all areas - from electronics to mechanics, main after sales issues are led by a people that are only marketing managers or similar. So forget about any possibility of self maintenance, or it will be very limited. Their job is to make this unavailable, or hardly available with fee. If anbody can contradict these, please, light me up, that it isn't so...

The main problem with modern bikes is the cost is way too high. Every time I buy a new bike (every 4-5 years), the cost goes up about $3K. I'll likely pay $10K for my next one.

That sounds like a you problem.

I think it could be a problem for manufacturers as well. People will eventually get tired of getting ripped off and switch sports.

Bikes aren't for "sports", they're for everyday transportation.

I don't have such strong opinions about how bikes (or other products) should be used. I'm curious, what informed your ideology? Why is the bike such a sacred cow for you?

You're projecting. Why do you have such a strong opinion about how bikes should be used?

>> Bikes aren't for "sports", they're for everyday transportation

That is your comment. I have no opinion whatsoever regarding how bikes should be used.

>>People will eventually get tired of getting ripped off and switch sports.

That is your comment. You obviously DO have an opinion on how bikes should be used.

I have an opinion on the pricing of higher end mountain bikes - I wish they were less expensive. I don't have an opinion on how they (or any bike) are used - bank robbery notwithstanding. You stated that bikes should only be used for transportation.

Suggest reviewing the following links regarding argument construction, how to avoid fallacies, etc.

https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/construct-compelling-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

That is your choice. As long as people are paying more, there will be a supply of more expensive bikes.

Competition should theoretically drive prices down, but this hasn't happened.

Yes, it has. There's tons of bikes for $200-$4000. If you're only looking at $10k bikes, that's your problem and it's to be expected that prices will be ridiculously high. This is exactly like complaining that Rolls Royces are too expensive.

I just spot checked a bike (Salsa Fargo). Was $1750 in 2012 and is $2650 now. I didn't compare the components to see if they are fancier than they used to be.

At a very cursory glance, looks like the price is up 50% in 10 years.

That problem is only in your head, and it sounds like someone complaining that iPhones and Ferraris are too expensive.

I recently bought a perfectly nice hybrid bike (with disc brakes too) for less than USD$1000.

Ownership rates of iPhones are very different from Ferarris. I'm sure there is a logical fallacy in this argument somewhere.

They're both luxury brands.

I’m mostly interested in quantitative metrics. The term “luxury” is very subjective. Perhaps some bubblegum brands could be considered luxury.

2.2B iPhones have been manufactured since 2007 while there are 65K Ferraris. That is one Ferrari for every 33K iPhones.

That is significant enough to not group them together to make a point in an argument.

Eh, someone will probably smoke you on their $1k bike. You gain literally nothing for the more expensive bikes except a few grams of weight savings here and there.

>You gain literally nothing for the more expensive bikes

You do if they come with a beefy motor strapped to them.

Anyone who mountain bikes regularly on more difficult trails will end up riding a bike that costs at least $5K. You can argue that it isn't necessary but the majority of riders would definitely disagree with you. I've never seen a $1K bike on such trails.

Of course, if you just need a commuter bike that can easily be had for $1K. Of course no one really needs anything - one could just run and save the $1K.

Then you're talking about a niche, not related to any meaningful percentage of bicycle use.

That depends on the region. In western US / Canada it is not niche. Globally, however it probably is.

Obviously Betteridge's law, but..

Hell yes something is being lost. Many cities are finally getting something like the cycling infrastructure that cyclists have dreamt about. Unfortunately, it’s for electric mopeds. They’re as hostile to push bikes as cars. From the comments here maybe this isn’t obvious (yet) from a US perspective. Few seem to have got the point of the article.

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