New Long March 5B Uncontrolled Reentry Tracked by Aerospace's Experts
aerospace.org
aerospace.org
>China's defiance of this norm has resulted in some horrific scenes as its boosters have periodically crashed into villages.
https://twitter.com/cnspaceflight/status/1589289240776839168
Regardless of the probability, there is a problem with choosing that risk for someone else without their consent.
Every action we take imposes risks on other people.
Economic models are one of our best tools to use in weighing these risks against each other and the costs of mitigating them.
(OTOH: China's cost to mitigate most of these risks would be, generally, pretty small... It's a cost of being in the space game, IMO.)
Nobody agrees a priori to China’s assessment of their economic value.
I try to use the latter form myself when talking about nation state actions to aid people who have trouble translating from one to the other, but it doesn’t seem that hard to figure out in this case. otoh e.g. “the chinese value education highly” is a bit more ambiguous since the statement is true for both the chinese people and the chinese goverment
The area of the earth’s surface occupied by humans (not their stuff, but the people themselves) is around 8000 km^2 (1m^2 per person) out of a total Earth surface area of 510 million km^2. so the probability is around 1.6E-5 or 0.0016% per launch. This obviously doesn’t account for the specific trajectory or population distribution, but gives us a rough order of magnitude.
I would prefer they didn’t do it also, and it definitely loses them international good will - but it’s a pretty low (but non-zero) risk.
[typo corrected]
That sounds pretty serious. Was there any official investigation or just ambiguous pictures posted on social media?
What more do you want?
[1] https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1260222397350887425
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21256484/china-rocket-deb...
[3] https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/05/large-chunks-of-a-ch...
According to Wikipedia, Cotes d'Ivoire is one of the largest economies in West Africa, representing 40% of the total GDP of the Economic Community of West African States.
Registered on April 9th, 2019 with GoDaddy according to WHOIS.
It's top story today is just commenting on some Ivorian politican's Twitter feed https://afriksoir.net/lobognon-junte-goita-integrite-mali-jo...
And it's not linked to any established West African news organization.
This took me about 10 minutes of digging to uncover. So if Verge thinks this is a credible source that really speaks volumes.
What do you think fell in Cotes d’Ivoire? What level of proof would be sufficient? Why are you so willing to believe the CCO line here? How have they demonstrated evidence to the contrary? If it burned up in reentry surely they have proof no? Where’s there investigation?
The fact is that this shady site was linked as a source, and it's in fact the first external link in a decently long article.
You're engaged in gish gallop jumping form one unrelated small critique to the next while ignoring that we know the rocket didn't burn up and a hunk of it did land in Cote d'Ivoire. We know China lied about it burning up on reentry.
Why are you ignoring all of that? Why are you carrying water for the CCP on this?
If there isn't a substantive point, or a clarification, to add, then don't reply and save your credibility.
Anyways, I will explain again:
Local reporting is the only potential source of evidence that anything fell on land at all. Not just for this case, but for nearly all debris cases.
Anyone not in the local area wouldn't know if anything actually hit the ground. With audio-visual evidence being a part of it, but those still need solid backing by a credible source, not ambiguous language.
The closest thing to solid evidence here seems to be a photo on Twitter of a long pipe on the ground, but no one credible is willing to stake their reputation and claim it definitely is a rocket component.
1. Multiple well known and respected experts like Dr.Marco Langbroek and Jonathan McDowell tracked the rocket heading at a low angle over the Atlantic towards Cote d'Ivoire
2. Multiple governments including the US released statements saying they believe it went down there
3. An infrasound station on the ground there picked up the debris traveling overhead[1].
What more do you really need? It seems clear it must have hit land.
[1] https://twitter.com/SinaZerbo/status/1260323482396774400
If you speak French there are some other sources from larger regional papers, but I didn’t dig in too much, and my vocabulary doesn’t cover rocket words.
The Cassini Mission was launched in 1997 with 72+ pounds of Pu aboard. NASA calculated the risks of 'inadvertent reentry' beforehand.
[https://web.archive.org/web/20030505132905/http://www.icsu-s...] [https://www.space4peace.org/articles/morenukesinspace.htm]
The US / or other countries for that matter "did it XXX years ago" to advance their goals and get more prosperous at the expense of the others. If you want to punish countries for doing similar things now it is totally ok, as long as you punish the same crimes committed earlier. The crime must be paid for. This of course will never happen so when you are trying to tell other countries that they should not be doing things that you've done yourself and got away with the only reasonable answer you can expect is fuck you very much.
This is not "your grandfather jaywalked" case but pretty rational I think. But you know where it will end up when for example our "leader" the US had declared that it does not recognize ICC, and will take any measures starting with sanctions and including force if it ever gets prosecuted. The other countries take it as an example. Cant blame them for not buying into that do as I say bullshit.
Anyway; the Chinese have done a few of these "uncontrolled reentries" now. All crashing into the ocean; so they are either very lucky or it is not so uncontrolled after all.
No matter how small the risk, countries have to make plan, allocate resources, keeping track of the rocket’s path, in case it does happen. They can’t just pray. Spain briefly closed part of their airspace, delaying 300 flights. Who is responsible for that?
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/science/spain-briefly-clos...
In case even if there is damage on the ground, there are treaties that govern the liabilities in case.
It would be interesting to know why they technically chose this particular way of doing it, but the discussion seems too hyperbolic for that.
If it fell on your house with you sleeping inside I'm sure the liabilities treaties would make your family be totally ok with it.
Orbital mechanics does not work that way (except for a polar orbit). It's covering a particular band of the surface that it could land on if uncontrolled.
Yep!
https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/china-keeps-dropping...
https://www.newsweek.com/photos-show-rocket-debris-india-chi...
Anyway; I don’t know if you are an Astro turfing troll or just that brainwashed.
FWIW, according to a study published by the National Library of Medicine, "celebratory gunfire" accounts for 4.6% of all stray bullet-related deaths and injuries:
Uncontrolled re-entry of any debris likely to reach the ground without burning up is a bad idea. So is blowing anything up in orbit (creating huge hazards for other spacecraft).
These are bad ideas no matter who does them and the fact that anyone did so in the past is not an excuse for continuing the bad behavior.
It's simply not the ace up the sleeve people think it is.
[1] https://www.space.com/nasa-esa-space-chiefs-condemn-china-ro...
How valuable is that? We can determine that using the concept of the "statistical value of a human life". For example, the NRC assigns a human life a statistical value of $9M when determining of the cost of some nuclear safety improvement is justified. This is similar to the value used for determining if traffic safety improvements are worthwhile or if medical procedures are justified.
Multiplying, this is saying that it's unacceptable that the cost of a reentry be as a little as $900. This seems quite unreasonable: the cost of avoiding uncontrolled entry should often be much higher than this. And indeed, if you look at what NASA actually does, it often gives wavers of this requirement. This tells me the requirement is of dubious legitimacy, existing more for PR purposes than because it's good policy.
I doubt the Chinese care about the political optics enough to waste their time avoiding such a low expected cost outcome. Nor should airlines cancel flights to avoid something like that either -- the cost far exceeds the expected benefit.
"Controlled reentry" isn't necessarily synonymous with "booster recovery". Most rockets have a way to deorbit the upper stage once its job is done, either by firing the main engine retrograde, or using a small dedicated deorbit motor. By firing the motor about half an orbit before the projected reentry point, you can control exactly when and where the stage will reenter the atmosphere, hence controlled reentry.
Second, the Long March 5B is somewhat unique among rockets in that its large main stage stays with the payload all the way until orbital insertion. Most other rockets drop a large majority of their bulk long before it has enough energy to stay in orbit for any appreciable amount of time. Probably the closest comparison in this category is the space shuttle's big orange external tank, as it provides fuel for the main engines until just a hair below orbital velocity, but it's subsequently jettisoned and the orbit is completed using the shuttle's onboard thrusters.
So you have a combination of (no deorbit capability) and (big tank floating in orbit) that results in (big tank crashing down at an arbitrary location whenever it feels like coming down to earth).
I don't think that's true anymore. There's a Danish radio program[1] that talked about this and apparently China is the only country/operator that still have uncontrolled reentry rocket stages. Everyone else have committed to controlled reentry.
Looking that the possible places where the rocket can hit populated areas. It looks like they went out of their way to ensure maximum coverage of Africa. Reentry a little earlier and they would have been almost ensured that it would hit the Atlantic Ocean.
[1]: https://www.radio4.dk/program/den-nye-rumalder/?gid=43389&ti...
>In 2020, over 60% of launches to low Earth orbit resulted in a rocket body being abandoned in orbit
>In the USA, the Orbital Debris Mitigation Standard Practices (ODMSPs) apply to all launches and require that the risk of a casualty from a reentering rocket body is below a 1-in-10,000 threshold4. However, the US Air Force waived the ODMSP requirements for 37 of the 66 launches conducted for it between 2011 and 2018, on the basis that it would be too expensive to replace non-compliant rockets with compliant ones
I do think China's space program is more irresponsible than USA/EU launches based on some of the debris fall, but blaming uncontrolled re-entry seems like the wrong thing here