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Comment by falcolas | Hacker News Reader

California is at-will. And it still requires 60 days notice for a mass-layoff, thorough a separate act, because it's a special case that's covered by a separate law.

> “an employer may not order a mass layoff, relocation, or termination at a covered establishment unless, 60 days before the order takes effect, the employer gives written notice of the order”

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Cal-WARNAct.html

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Without sounding dumb, this is saying that a company has to tell you 60 days ahead of time that in 60 days they will fire you?

edit: Thank you for the clarification, appreciate the added insights.

Pretty much, yes. It's an employee friendly policy, which is certainly not the norm. But given how long tech interviews can take, it's a good policy for tech employees.

Note, I don't benefit from this since I'm not in CA, but I still think it's a good idea.

Yes. They don't have to let you into the building, let you access their systems, etc., but they need to fulfil their contractual obligations in terms of pay and benefits for 60 days.

(EU laws apply more broadly, but the California one is only in the event of mass layoffs)

Instead of phrasing it that way, think of it has companies being required to give you 60 days notice, just like they want you to give them two weeks notice. Every time I've ever been at a company doing layoffs, they paid salaries (and benefits) for at least 60 days after the announcement, precisely because of laws like this.

not fire but lay off. There's a difference, you can still be fired at any time but laying people off is different. The company is terminating their employment through no fault of the employee. That's a contract violation basically and so the terms are different.

You also have to remember that being "laid off" is different than "being fired," at least under the law. I'm not sure where the line is drawn for "mass layoff," but these people aren't being fired for cause, or being let go individually at the whim of the employer (which is kind of what "at will" means for the employer).

Laid off often means that the position is being eliminated.

I will draw attention to https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2012-title20-vol3/pd... which defines a mass layoff:

> (c) Mass layoff. (1) The term "mass layoff" means a reduction in force which first, is not the result of a plant closing, and second, results in an employment loss at the single site of employment during any 30-day period for: (i) At least 33 percent of the active employees excluding part-time employees, and (ii) At least 50 employees, excluding part-time employees.

There is no difference of "for cause" or "not for cause" in the wording of the WARN act. There may be a difference in the contract (not removing a comic may be construed as "for cause") but if that employee was let go in the the frame of a reduction in force, they are likely covered by the WARN act too... of course, ask a lawyer.

In particular, employers with a bit more pragmatic/cautious legal department will avoid firing people for cause in the 30 day window where a layoff happens to avoid the possibility that the fired employee falls into the same category as those who are covered by the WARN act.

Not only tell the person being laid off, but also inform a government office of the planned mass layoff so they can prepare unemployment resources, job transition/retraining programs, and things like that.

Only applies in the case of mass layoffs.

Notice can be given in the form of severance.

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