One of the things rarely touched on about Twitter / FB et al are that they are transmission platforms and then a discovery / recommendation layer on top.
The "algorithm" is this layer on top and it is assumed that this actively sorts people into their bubbles and people passively follow - there is much discussion about splitting the companies AT&T style to improve matters.
But countries where much of the discourse is on WhatsApp do not have WhatsApp to do this recommendation - it is done IRL (organically) - and people actively sort themselves.
The problem is not (just) the social media companies. It lies in us.
The solution if we are all mired in the gutter of social media, is to look up and reach for the stars.
How we act depends on our environment and incentives.
It is possible to build environments and incentives that make us better versions of ourselves. Just like GPT-3, we can all be primed (and we all are primed all the time, by every system we use).
The way we got from small tribes to huge civilizations is by figuring out how to create those systems and environments.
Yes, the algorithm is not the problem alone, but a good algorithm can help fix the problems — since it creates the "loss function" (the incentives) for the humans using the platform (I go into that in more detail here https://twitter.com/metaviv/status/1529879799862378497 and here https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/bridging-based-rank... for those who are curious).
So it's not about "reaching for the stars" or complaining about how humanity is too flawed. It's about carefully building the systems that take us to those stars!
I don't believe any system can be a solution, it isn't a requirement for a lot of communities either. I don't know what differentiates these groups from others, probably more detachment from content and statements. There is also simply a difference between people that embraced social media to put themselves out there and ghosts that have multiple pseudonyms. Content creators are a different beast, they have to be more public on the net, but that comes with different problems again.
I believe it is behavior and education that would make social media work, but not with the usual approaches. I don't think crass expressions with forbidden words or topics are a problem, on the contrary they can be therapeutic. Just saying because this will be the first thing some people will try to change. Ban some language, ban some content, the usual stuff.
This seems no different from "popularity based" ranking mechanisms (e.g. Reddit) where the downvote functionality can be used to suppress other content.
Maybe the assumption is that both camps will be abusing the negative interactions? But you can always abuse more.
How is such system protected from someone manipulating the consensus by employing a troll farm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_farm)?
- by “failure of algorithm”, the vocal minority actually mean “lack of algorithmic oppressions and treatments according to alignments of a speech with respect to academic methodologies and values”.
- average people are not “good”; many are collectivist with varying capacity of understanding individualism and logic. They cannot function normally where constant virtue signaling, prominent display of self established identities, said alignments above, are required, such as on Twitter. In such environments, people feels and expresses pain, and makes effort to recreate their default operating environments, overcoming systems if need be.
- introducing such normal but “incapable” people - in fact honest and naive and just not post-grad types - into social media had caused the current mess, described by the vocal minority as algorithm failures and echo chamber effects, and by the mainstream peoples as elitisms and sometimes conspiracies.
Algorithmically oppressing and brainwashing users to align with such values would be possible, I think(and sometimes I’d think about trying it for my interests; imagine a world where every pixel seems to have had 0x008000 subtracted - it’s my weird personal preference that I don’t like high saturations of green), but an important question of ethics has to be discussed before we’d push for it, especially with respect to political speeches, I also think.
my take is that social networks opened a new 'space' and just like every new spaces, old rules / regulations / institutions got thrown out to enjoy the newfound freedom, until people experience the same issues.. aka the need for organization and will thus reinvent similar rules they went away from. It's a kind of cycle.
such freedom itself is not a benefit, it's more like removing brakes from your car to save weight and maintenance cost.
It's the difference between a carefully tended forest and a forest where the "tending" made sure there was flammable underbrush spread everywhere. Sure it is the match that started the forest fire, but there is a world of difference between the two.
As despicable as Facebook is, I wish someone there would just come out and say “have you looked at yourself in the mirror?”
It’s mindboggling to see them passively accept the questioning without mentioning that people are wolves and sheeples, and you don’t really need Facebook to join the two.
Platforms like Facebook only bring us closer but the rotten core is within us.
If there is a lot of food, people will lean towards sharing their food, and helping others - even anonymously in a truly "altruistic" sense.
If everyone is starving, people will lean towards violence and stealing.
Does this "expose the rotten core within us?", or is it just saying we have the capacity for both? If we were truly completely rotten we wouldn't share in either case.
The fact is that environment and circumstance are inexorably tied in with our behaviour - a fact that we seem to wish to see negatively, our ideal being a perfect person who operates with true altruism in all circumstances regardless of personal cost.
Throwing our hands up and saying "go look at yourself in the mirror" is missing the big picture in my view, which is that if you want a good behavioural outcome, the environment and context of the behaviour is one of the biggest factor, and is a big target to attempt to improve. If more people are operating in a positive environment, you get more positivity.
Personal accountability, yes, is a thing, but is quite a lot more difficult to instil and improve from within a smaller slice of the world, like an app, and is more of a greater societal concern or otherwise would require propagation of an ideal with a reach that is quite hard to achieve through your app.
Also comparing our social media squabbles to food security is not right imho.
If you think about it, not only do we not teach such things, these sorts of ideas very often get mocked and dismissed as "woo woo".
This.
That's orthogonal. Human nature is what it is, we have to work with what we have, and at best change that slowly within a culture/society.
Facebook on the other hand, and how it operates, is almost infinitely malleable, and can be changed with just programmers working on the change.
And it's not some neutral playground that's "only bring us closer" but an active agent, which has policies to create echo bubbles, stir up engagement, and use distraction and partisanship for maximum profit, and whole teams dedicated to it.
So, no it's not like a knife that can be used to cut a cake or kill a person, and it's "just up to us how we use it".
It's more like an automatic riffle with a laser guide careful designed for maximum hurt, and promoted as such to customers (in this case, advertisers), with product teams devoted to stirring up conflict to improve the riffle selling business...
Broadcast is centralizing the conversation, and to maximize viewership / listenership they are encouraged to talk about a broad variety of things... But they're the ones doing the talking.
Apart from choosing to tune into specialized shows, there's less self-sorting possible when the channels and content are finite. You can't easily just tune into the stories you want to hear on the six o'clock news; someone else is deciding relevance and the topics chosen to be relevant are seen by everyone.
But either introduce bidirectional communication or the modern cable dynamic of a thousand channels, and that homogenization goes away.
We had WW1 and 2, Vietnam. Civil wars, internment camps, genocide.
Lots of these were approved and even celebrated by the majority of the population when all they had was broadcast media telling them what to think about.
I think it's wild how much people romanticize "traditional media." Broadcast and print media is and always has been awful.
Broadcaster-controlled consensus worldviews can be faulty. But we have not replaced those faults with the self-sorting of the listener, because listener worldviews are also faulty.
Essentially scrolls through the various options that will start a fire.
Human nature is what it is. And AI systems are designed to understand it (sometimes not designed but unhappy accidents find them)
So it goes something like this for a user, using a real anecdote as an example:
1) Get exposed to content they never seen before, like let's say "The UN in reality is run by satanist pedophiles". This is more likely to happen outside of one's bubble - therefore not on whatsapp.
2) Get exposed again and again, either to the content, or high-reach influencers, or ads, or a mixture of the 3.
3) Search google for "UN satanist pedophile". Now you can read "real theory" by "very legitimate people" in long form explaining the proofs, history, motivation, etc for the conspiracy.
4) Radicalization
5) Now you need validation for your behavior/beliefs.
6) You identify and approach or get approached by liked-minded lunatics.
7) They invite you to the whatsapp group "only for believers".
8) Now you feel part of a group and ready to "act".
9) You take part in a nazi rally [a]
The internet enables multicast communication, whereas before we could only afford broadcast communication. Broadcast requires the same message to be sent to all, so it forces that message to be moderate and non-polarizing.
We always harbored the ability to be polarized according to our beliefs, but the technology didn't yet exist to allow that.
There are two reasons for that:
1. Psychological Reason: It is tempting for an non educated man to adopt an opinion that derides existing knowledge because these guys now feel taller and not at a disadvantage when confronted with the more elaborate and complex nature of the truth or with educated people.
2. Biological Reason: People polarize against common accepted truths (i.e. Covid) as a safety precaution measure against humanity annihilation due to Lemming behavior. So in the case the majority belief ends up in a catastrophic event the 10%, 5%, 1%, 0.001% minority will survive.
Educated people can be wrong alright. However really educated people are rarely absolute in their positions because they know that the world is not black and white and almost always the answer is "it depends" and "let's see it from the other side".
However polarizing views are attracting to non educated minds because they often give their believers simplistic views, potential enemies and pseudo-arguments that can nail the other "educated" or even just common-sense people. It's frightening really to see in action the amount of flattering it goes on in such cases.
I have caught myself many times to crave for the simplistic easy answer and the ready made explanation. The one that tingles your ego suggesting: "How can nobody thought of that? Wow! I am really smart or all other are dump which is about the same.".
In order to escape its allure it takes one or more of the below:
a) self discipline which is not possible to have for all matters and domains b) external factors that force you to delve in to the thing at hand (a job) c) in specific instances you make it a hobby and you gain more intimate knowledge that can't be simplistic black and white.
I see this from utopianists, who believe that "if only these people would get out of the way we could fix this problem and reach utopia! If they are against us they must either be evil, stupid, or both, as our position is good (quality), good (morally), and reasonable."
The next step is cancellation. I suppose we're lucky that cancellation is as far as society is willing to go at this point but we know that these things can get much worse.
As such, I must side with strong scepticism of any view regardless of expertise (i.e. argument by authority as a fallacy is the default position) and any question, by anyone, of any standing, must be taken seriously. As J. S. Mill put it:
> If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
i.e. - id est - "that is" (i.e. a clarifying restatement of what was just said)
e.g. - exempli gratia - "for example" ("I like to post comments about language and usage of English, e.g. clarifying the use of certain Latin abbreviations")
If you believed in alien lizard people controlling the world or in 1980, your options to collaborate with fellow lunatics were limited.
Today, that’s a real thing with followers.
Of course there are political reasons for which algorithms also do content filtering and censorship but the money reason trumps all: the more time you spend on a network, the more ads you see, the more time you spend on a network, the more content you produce and the more you interact with others and that produces a smell that will attract other small insects which will be served ads, will produce more content and interaction.
But user behavior problem can be solved cheaply, easily and in a scalable way:
Give each user an ability to form the personal filter. Basically, all what I need is:
1. I want to read what person A writes - always.
2. I want to read what person B writes - always, except when talking to person C.
3. I want to peek through a filter of the person I like - to discover more interesting to me persons.
4. Show me random people posts like 3-4 (configurable) times per day.
This is basically how my spinal brain worked in unmoderated Fido-over-Usenet groups (Upd: yes, this “oh how everyone will die without moderation” problem is that old). Some server help will be great, sure, but there is nothing here that is expensive or not scalable. PS: centralized filtering is needed only when you are going after some content, not noise.
The radical Bolsonaro whatsapp groups are a mix of top down and grass roots content. On one end there is the central "propaganda office", or other top political articulators. On the bottom are the grassroots group chats: neightborhoods, churches, biker communities, office mates, etc. Memes and viral content flow in both directions. The contents and messages that ressonate in the lower levels are actively distributed by the central articulators, which have a hierarchy of group chats to circulate new propaganda as widely as possible. You can see this happen in real time when a political conundrum happens,e.g a corruption scandal. The central office will A-B test various messages in their group chats and then the one that resonates better with their base gets amplified and suddenly they manage to "change the topic" on the news. The end result is that we just had 4 years of political chaos, where the modus operandi of the goverment was to put out fires by deflecting the public discourse whenever a new crisis emerged. It's not merely a content problem that could be solved by a better filtration algorithm. It's a deeper issue of how social media can affect human behavior. How quickly ideas can spread, how easy it became for people to self-organize into "bubbles", and so on.
If you do not like hateful politics, just filter them out - of your own feed. My solution, if implemented, will give you exactly that opportunity.
Most of them are getting pushed there from automated platforms bombarding them with things they can't stand. The automated outrage machines are what radicalize people, not the private message groups.
By the time you have private message groups propagating the same messaging the damage has already been done. To get people out, you need to cut off the source of the outrage and soothe whatever fear is being ramped up.
Censoring the outrage and dismissing/patronizing people from a position of authority doesn't work, it just acts as an accelerant.
I think the crazy groups will sputter out if there's enough space for venting, free association, and ability for the average person to turn off things they don't want to see. I think that last point is the key. Millions of people are bombarded with things they really don't like in systems they have no way to really manage themselves. The legitimate complaints will filter up and out of the crazy circles if people are allowed to form their own groups and don't feel forced to pack themselves together around the loudest people who can given them a voice on the big automated feeds they don't really understand.
People have a much better chance at effectively communicating with their neighbor or family member or old friend with a different perspective than a stranger online with a different perspective, and they are much more likely to engage when in a frame of mind that will actually accept differences of opinion if they are managing their own connections and exposure themselves.
This conversation also speaks to the social complexity that gets obfuscated by some of these big platforms and the fact that things are different in all kinds of ways in different parts of the world. I don't know really anything about Brazil besides some fairly superficial basic history/culture and have pretty much zero contextual understanding of what it's like to live/communicate there. The fact that the same thing seems to be happening all over the world is really weird.
That's why I think it has a tight relationship to scale of communication channels, as that seems to be the main thing that's changed recently and is consistent regardless of specific platform/means of communication.
People flock to other people that make them feel the way they want to feel, and tell them what they want to do is okay.
People find these groups organically too, or form them themselves, through friend associations, not just by having them pushed.
A lot of people like to feel angry against someone (the other), as it gives them a sense of control and power. Joining others who are similarly aligned, also gives them the sense of belonging.
People who are in these states aren’t going to filter out their friends, or filter out the people telling them things they want to hear.
They’re going to filter out things that make them feel uncomfortable, or that they don’t agree with - like anyone who would stop them from going further down the rabbit hole!
That's not my assumption. I think echo chambers are impossible to prevent and ignorance is something most people gravitate towards. I think many people are likely to find reasons to vilify and misunderstand each other until the end of time.
What I think is possible to curtail and is being ramped up now is viral conflict escalation. If active conflict is curtailed, that expands the amount of peace time available for actually effective communication if and when the opportunity arises over long stretches of time with a lot of effort. If you have an irrational hatred towards people with X quality/opinion because of bad information, are you more likely to become agitated and attack people if you a) people with X quality/opinion aren't visible b) people with X quality/opinion are unavoidable?
The ideal is obviously to get people to understand each other better, but I think we're seeing you can't just do that by superficially exposing everyone to everyone else. It requires a more sophisticated approach that respects people enough to have their own autonomy and seek out understanding and better information voluntarily through more personal interaction and influence.
There are natural forms of competency and organizational filters that allowed us to progress to where we are today and nudge people towards greater understanding of each other and cooperation which punish bigotry and unintelligent assumptions through natural rather than artificial consequences. Increased social cohesion and progress was not a top down process in the past and does not need to be a top process down now, and I think an attempt to manage global conversation is just as naive as the naive open global village kumbaya assumptions that got us into this mess. People's autonomy needs to be respected if you want them to consider a more enlightened perspective.
If they were, Nazi Germany would not have been what it was.
Also, baked into what you’re saying seems to be an assumption that if no one was prompted to start a fight, no one would fight. And that is true sometimes, with many people. But that is definitely not true of everyone, let alone everyone all the time!
The forms of social organization which are natural to us are easily directed towards hate of ‘outside’ groups, which can be easily constructed from any easily identifiable group of people with the right set of conditions. Even without prompting, it naturally arises based on visual identifiers and in many common environmental triggers.
In fact, near as I can tell, the only thing stopping larger scale movements of exactly that type is cultural memory of the death, destruction, and terribleness that results from it, resulting in active pressure against anyone trying to form a similar group. The ‘my grandfather fought a war against Nazi’s, you’re not going to be a Nazi’ type of memory.
Which fades with time, and isn’t natural to anyone?
> When plebeians do something that makes sense to them, but not to him, the IYI uses the term “uneducated”. What we generally call participation in the political process, he calls by two distinct designations: “democracy” when it fits the IYI, and “populism” when the plebeians dare voting in a way that contradicts his preferences.
- Nassim Nicholas Taleb
https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e...
Silencing people so that they will vote against their own interests - it’s the last thing I ever can wish. Ends badly.
As to firebombing and assasination - wouldn’t you rather have them discuss and plan such things openly, so that police can easily apprehend them?
Or, as I’ve already described here - in 1990 during Gorbachev’s glasnost (kinda sorta more freer speech) our county seat newspaper with a proud name Kommunist published my article about some successful economic experiment we’ve done in our town. In the next issue the same paper published letters of angry “workers” naming me “an enemy of the people”. Which is a pretty serious accusation in the Soviet Union, historically speaking. It basically meant I should be killed if Gorbachev ever loses power to conservatives. A death threat, basically. And that threat was THE most important information I’ve ever got in my life. Why on earth I would wish it silenced?
That’s not the threat here: the problem are the changes constantly promoting messages which stay on the legal side but encourage people to do things. People like the woman behind LibsOfTikTok are careful not to incriminate themselves but they know there are people who will hear what they say and act on it.
That’s why moderation can’t be individual: the people most susceptible to lies and propaganda are willingly seeking it out. That’s always been a problem but social media has made it orders of magnitude easier to discover.
What are you basically saying is: democracy (which is impossible without free speech) is not able to work after social media is invented and deployed, because some people are susceptible to lies and propaganda. I kinda doubt the truth of such a radical statement. Democracy is not an ideal thing, but look what happens with alternatives - when some wise men decide what is better for those susceptible (and all others too).
That doesn’t mean we can’t have social media but it means that we need to have some basic constraints, and that companies need regulation, especially for what they promote.
Also, to be clear I’m not saying that this is unique to social media - for example, the current wave of anti-democratic sentiment in the U.S. has been promoted on cable TV as well - but that we can’t continue to ignore social media at a time when it’s shaping so much popular opinion.
From what I know, this person literally just reposts crazy liberal videos verbatim. The same thing has and will continue to be done to crazy conservative ideas.
> but they know there are people who will hear what they say and act on it.
What is the account saying and hoping people will act on? It's bringing crazy ideas to the forefront to expose the ridiculousness of them. It's no different then people bringing the "lizard people" conspiracy theories to the forefront. It exposes how ridiculous these ideas are by taking the ideas out of the deeply nested echo chambers they're started in.
That’s how this works: Chaya Raichik claims to just be sharing real things but in reality is often providing heavy spin or outright misrepresenting what she shares, encourages hate (e.g. she’ll routinely label LGBTQ people as child groomers), and takes no responsibility for her role in inciting violence.
This culminated in children’s hospitals having to react to blob threats over the summer over false claims she popularized:
https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/08/17/boston-childrens-hos...
The best you can do is try and convince them otherwise, which requires talking to them rather than ejecting them from your community and having them form little communities out of the rejects that then radicalize.
Wrong signal - is not a problem for society, in my always humble opinion. It’s a problem only for those who want bad things. Silence helps them, not the society.
Now, there are also problems with a world that doesn't give everyone access to 1:N broadcast media, but they are different problems.
> other whatsapp groups that I'm not in, which are filled with hateful politics.
That brings the discussion from you to others users, and your goal seems to be to change how other users are affected by their time on a platform.
> The radical Bolsonaro whatsapp groups are a mix of top down and grass roots content.
You seem to be talking about motivated individuals who formed groups with a specific purpose and express their views and propositions in these specific groups (which you don’t belong to, as mentioned first)
Whatever way we slice it, short of the platform banning their related topics entirely, I don’t see how a neutral service could act about these people/ideas spreading, from a mere platform POV. You’re talking about thought policing private groups basically.
By the way, I mentioned Bolsonaro explicitly because those groups are currently the better organized ones in the Brazilian social media space, masters at exploiting the Whatsapp dynamics. But the fundamental problem is not exclusive to the extreme right.
Far right extremists are the problem, keep "both sides" out of this.
I'm sure Yishan knows this from his time at Reddit. They seem to go through a controversy about this every year or two[1] with most of the offenders focussed on either hate or porn. /r/jailbait is one of the early examples that comes to mind. It hosted risqué, but apparently legal photos of underage girls. Reddit couldn't just tell people "Don't visit those subreddits if you don't want to see that content". Most people found the content objectionable enough to want it removed completely. Its mere existence made normal users less likely to use Reddit despite users needing to go out of their way to see that objectionable content.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communiti...
To me it’s kind of perverse logic. If a platform hosts persons that some powerful group of people want to be removed - than I can trust the platform to less likely to remove me, when and if I cross some powerful or just loud and anger people.
Like: there is a lot of people in the US that I do not like, but I rather live in a country with 14th Amendment than in a country without one. I’ve tried both :)
When enough people consistently say you shouldn't be allowed to do something, we won't allow you to do it. When enough people say you should be allowed, you will be. Maybe that is cynical, but that is life in a democracy. Churchill was right about it being the worst form of government.
Not everywhere in the world. I’ve spent 40 years in a country without one.
> When enough people consistently say you shouldn't be allowed to do something, we won't allow you to do it.
Exactly. You guys can lose your 1st amendment pretty quickly.
The example of the 14th Amendment was meant to show that these amendments don't have some innate meaning or special true power. The 1st Amendment only ever means what the majority wants it to mean (a loose definition of majority, the US is a republic not a democracy, etc.).
We will never lose the 1st Amendment, however we are constantly having a debate over what the 1st Amendment actually means. From a practical perspective, your rights are not innate or god given, they are majority given. That is how these systems work and no one has yet found a system that can improve on that approach.
This really confuses me. Does the fact that people send racist insults at each other in Call of Duty matches via the Internet make you less likely to use the internet?
This “passive endorsing” is a great social construct! It allows anybody to go after TMobile for passively endorsing all the lies I said to pretty women over the phone.
This explanation seems pretty strange to me.
1. If I am not exposed to some content - how do I know that it exist?
2. If I see that platform does not delete an objectionable content and does not force me to contact it - I would feel much safer in re that my non-objectionable would not be deleted too.
> ...
> /r/jailbait is one of the early examples that comes to mind. It hosted risqué, but apparently legal photos of underage girls. Reddit couldn't just tell people "Don't visit those subreddits if you don't want to see that content". Most people found the content objectionable enough to want it removed completely. Its mere existence made normal users less likely to use Reddit despite users needing to go out of their way to see that objectionable content.
Are there metrics showing that reddit usage decreased because of subreddits like that? It's possible that most normal users who aren't actively searching for such content may not even be aware of that subreddit's existence and the number that are aware of it and who would choose not to use reddit is not signficant enough to affect overall usage patterns.
On the usenet side, Andrew Cuomo (back when he was the attorney general of New York) made a deal with a number of large ISPs in terms of dealing with CP getting posted to usenet. It's almost certain that those who were just using usenet for their discussions were not searching for CP on usenet, so their usage patterns would not have been affected.
But what did affect it was ISPs dropping usenet service, which lead to people no longer posting and groups dying off because no one was posting. This isn't something that would happen to reddit unless all major ISPs started blocking access to it.
1(b) I want to read what person A writes about #hashtag
1(c) I never want to see person A's posts about #hashtag
The latter can be bluntly accomplished by hiding everything about #hashtag, but sometimes you don't want to do that (you still want to see stuff on the topic, just not written by that person).
How come he's been in charge at reddit all these years and never looked at it through the lens of "consent"?
Ask, can you consent to this? For spam filtering, the answer is obviously hell yes. That's pretty much how we define spam: stuff we don't want, and which essentially no one wants.
Moderation is when it's still about you and what you want for yourself, but where you concede that some people may want it. And it may be more or less OK that some people want it, but this is not the place for it. If you don't want religion or politics in your game discussion group, that's moderation.
Censorship is about controlling what other people want, in order to shape their opinions and beliefs. You can't coherently consent to it. You're not worried that there's some magically seductive piece of propaganda that will turn you into a Nazi, or a furry for that matter. No, you're worried that there's a seductive piece of propaganda that will work on other people. That's the defining aspect of censorship, that it's for other people's sake, not your own.
Now, censors will often claim that they're only doing it for themselves, that they just get so disgusted by furries (or whatever) that they just don't want to deal with it. A way to test that, is to see how transparent they are about their supposed moderation. If it's moderation, being transparent about it is perfectly fine. But for the censor, transparency is not possible, because even letting the poor flock know that the seductive information exists, could tempt them to go look for it.
Another way, of course, is whether they are content with moderating their own spaces. People that try their damndest to eliminate the thing they hate from existence with DDoS attacks, targeted harassment, or preventing communication they're not even a party to, are obviously censorious, not merely "moderating".
Now, there's a separate discussion of when, if ever, it's appropriate to censor. Maybe if we're talking about people who can't meaningfully consent and are easily manipulated (i.e. children). Maybe if there's some sort of existential issue at stake (e.g. national security).
But let's not pretend, like Yishan Wong does, that consent doesn't matter.
That would be two years (2012-14).
Which you'll find you won't enjoy. You'll also find you can't keep up with these filters of yours; surely you have better things to do than personally moderate every forum you use?
Why on earth I would want to control your (for example) emotional state? You are a grown up person, your medical decisions are yours to take, not mine. Yes, angry conversations are long and stupid and are always reduced to “inventive” cursing - but a lot of people seem to enjoy this style of “argument” - who am I to stop them? Why stop others’ fun? All I want is - not to read and preferably not even to see such kind of “discussions”.
> You'll also find you can't keep up with these filters of yours
But I can. All I ask is just some help from the server.
> surely you have better things to do than personally moderate every forum you use?
It’s much easier than you think. I do not object to people hiring cleaning companies to clean their houses, but I prefer to clean my house myself. And this Dyson handheld helps very much. Same goes for moderation - why delegate this dirty work to others, especially when I’ve observed how even reasonable people I personally know tend to abuse this power?
I wasn't a heavy user, but it was a bit of a smaller world back then - that tends to make people behave a bit better (obviously not always…), but there were also fewer other places to go if you got tired of it, it was mainly for personal use, and there wasn't a feeling that someone "owned" it.
These days if a forum has bad vibes people will want to leave it, and there's more of a customer service attitude because they know someone runs it. (Or for a professional/project mailing list, a non-abusive-workplace attitude maybe.)
Similarly the people running it feel more responsible so they want to mod it more. It's mostly just annoying if there's a lot of intense arguments on it, not necessarily bad for business, but if they get really bad there's the worry it drives away new users and eventually gets you legal attention over users, say, stalking each other, or planning crimes, or posting terrorism threats.
> It’s much easier than you think.
It was in the 90s, I just don't think killfile technology has kept up with the rate of modern posting on something like Twitter. There is block and mute but there's not, say, OCR to stop people from screenshotting you and attracting new harassers for years after the fact.
Though I think Twitter just laid off all their mods so we'll see how it goes.
I'm very confident at this point that the problem is the enormous size of the rooms where everyone is talking.
I don't think user behavior will ever be better in a sufficiently large room. Effective communication requires shared context which is impossible to establish when a room is sufficiently large and sufficiently diverse.
What we're seeing with increased political polarization is I think an attempt by most people to differentiate themselves into groups of like minded people not just so they can form echo chambers, but so they can actually talk and be heard, and hear what other people are saying. You don't get that when the room becomes global in scale, you just get a bunch of noise, as is mentioned.
I think we're in a particularly nasty situation in tech because most of the people involved in creating and administering these platforms have a huge blindspot when it comes to the lack of context hopping ability in the average person, because the people that tend to get into tech tend to be very open to global connectivity and actually do have somewhat of a capacity to hop around and absorb a huge range of different contexts (although much more superficially than I think they realize/that's the price of extreme openness).
I am also fairly confident the solution is to create user managed and federated platforms. The problem would I think solve itself if people were better able to control what online social groups they expose themselves to. We've been organizing ourselves for thousands of years into a hierarchical networks of different families/towns/cities/states because those are the only long term stable systems that can deal with the huge variations in contextual difference between people. You can still have egalitarian cosmopolitan global villages for people who want that, and you can still have emissaries and exchange programs and global shared interest channels and encourage cooperation amongst different groups and avoid conflict, but I think the idea of a singular all encompassing global village was always a terribly thought out, completely untenable idea that would never work at scale.
I was going to write an article on this a long time ago after a similar thread came up here, but I don't have any clout and ended up getting swamped in other things, so I never did. Properly making this case would also require a lot of research and historical comparison to really evaluate, but the more time passes, the stronger and stronger my hunch is that we need to do almost exactly the opposite of what most people seem to think we should and allow people to differentiate themselves instead of forcing them to be together and all play by the same rules. The echo chambers will become less echoey if you allow people to build their own and feel safe enough to poke their heads out of when they feel sufficiently understood in their corner. The echo chambers are the result of gamed automated feeds where people are trying to signal I want my space by pulling harder and harder in a direction that makes them less and less likely to be bombarded with stuff they don't want entering their space involuntarily.
This commenter is talking about whatsapp behavior in Brazil and gives an example of a seemingly similar situation where there doesn't seem to be as much engagement focused algorithmic influence at play https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33459878
So, I agree. The enormous size of the room is a problem. If you're X, you can't have a one-on-one conversation with someone who's Y without having a bunch of other Ys jump in, and then a bunch of Xs in response. And then you get a bunch of Zs piling on, and the whole thing becomes a shouting match, not a calm, reasonable conversation.
I echo what others have said. That article sounds important, and useful. Please write it.
Apparently in both studies I found the most statistically significant user behavior for bans was if the user had a tendency to post articles from low quality online ”news” sites.
So essentially even the political controversy around moderation boils down to the fact that one side, the right, is happily posting low quality news/fake news that they either get banned for disinformation or other rule-breaking behavior.
One of the biggest political news stories of 2020, Hunter Biden's laptop, was falsely declared misinformation, and the NY Post was accused of being a low quality site. Now we know it's true.
On the other hand, the Steele Dossier was considered legitimate news at the time and "many of the dossier’s most explosive claims...have never materialized or have been proved false."[1].
So I'd like to know exactly what the study's authors considered low-quality news, but unfortunately I couldn't find a list in the paper you linked. In my experience, most people tend to declare sources "high-quality" or "low-quality" based on whether they share the same worldview.
1: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/business/media/spooked-pr...
I wish they had included the list so we could see for ourselves. It's still possible that there are flaws in the study. But the it appears to take the concern of fairness more seriously than most.
From a European perspective it was just outlandish hearsay and speculation. Hard to understand why Americans get so invested when no criminal case materializes.
The Hunter Biden story is significant because there are emails which suggest Hunter Biden had ties to foreign companies that wanted access to his father. This could be grounds for a criminal case implicating his father.
Now, in a sane society during a less polarized election, this would have been discussed in the open, and people would make cases as to the relevance or irrelevance of the evidence, relevance to Joe Biden specifically, and whether the evidence merits investigation through proper channels in an open and transparent way.
Since Trump was viewed as even more corrupt and more of a threat by enough people capable of suppressing the story, the story was suppressed, and this conversation didn't happen until after the election. That does not mean the entire FBI and judicial process is broken like some people on the right claim, which is an extremely dangerous accusation, and the lack of a proper case means we do not know the extent or non extent of corruption, but the suppression of the story was a violation of public trust by those who suppressed it and poured a lot of fuel on an already raging fire.
I agree with that in principle. The idea that a presidential candidate's son has obviously nepotistic business appointments in industries and countries that he has no business being in presents a facial conflict of interest and should invite a debate on quid pro quo corruption. I would say these kinds of stories are a feature of both political parties in the U.S. and across a wide swath of time -- this is effectively the same role as the Clinton Foundation played in the previous election, for instance. And I think it makes sense to debate or investigate this kind of thing in public, including during the election. In fact, Hunter Biden's role in these companies was scrutinized to some degree earlier in the presidential election and also in the primary and also indeed over the last four years. So I reject the notion on the right that this is an issue that "could not" be discussed because "the elites" suppressed the discussion. My sense is that the eventual conclusion was what it seemed from the very beginning: Hunter Biden is a colossal fuckup, everyone around him tried to help him not be a fuckup, he kept being a fuckup, and it should be to no one's surprise that he tried to leverage his father even though there's no to limited evidence any such quid pro quo occurred.
The laptop, though, is a pretty complicated thing. It feels more like a direct parallel to the Podesta email hacking in the 2016 election (which, among other things, spawned Pizzagate). Bad actors (in 2016, foreign intelligence; in 2020, a domestic political adversary) took steps to secure a large cache of material, potentially by committing crimes to do so, and released it to the public on the very eve of a presidential election as an October surprise. The framing of the stories on the right was that the _existence_ of the material (emails in 2016, laptop in 2020) was proof that the allegations against the candidate were true, even though basically none of the material seems at all connected to the allegations.
Furthermore, the nature of the release was that the people who secured the damaging material obfuscated and laundered it. The press had neither the time nor the resources necessary to verify the contents of the material. Finally, the biggest risk was that large amounts of true material would be combined with knowingly fabricated material in a way that laundered the reputation of the false material. This is hardly an empty false flag thing, it's literally exactly what a nefarious actor _should_ do if they come into possession of huge amounts of stolen material to make the greatest impact.
Although the reactions to the Hunter Biden story were overreactions, that's the framework that I think people had adopted. I think people were thinking back to the Podesta email hack and to the FBI confirmation of the Weiner stuff causing a significant late disruption in 2016 election and wanting to avoid the possibility of a similar disruption here. And I think in principle there is a responsibility to avoid this kind of chaos: for instance, if a candidate is accused of a heinous crime (say rape or murder) the day before an election, it is possible both that the accusation would have a serious impact on the election and that not enough time exists to validate, refute, or contextualize it.
I can't say the exact length of time before an election that should be a sundown period, informally or formally, but I just recognize that you might imagine some combination of late breaking, serious, and difficult to verify that would merit a deliberate choice to not interfere with the election. The same thing occurred in France about 36 hours before the 2017 presidential election: Huge cache of Macron emails were hacked and distributed (probably by foreign intelligence). Opponents of Macron said, without evidence, that this was proof of Macron's perfidy and would sink him. The media generally refused to engage the story because it was the fruit of a poison tree and 36 hours is not enough time to work it out. The far-right party noted that this was censorship and the end of free speech and investigative journalism is over.
The only winner in a situation like this are the agents of chaos.
(Some of the emails are validated through DKIM. This does not actually prove anything in general.)
Also, they should be happy reading a story that he took bribes and then didn't do the thing he was bribed for. That means the criminals have less money now! It's clearly a virtuous action.
The contents appear to be from Biden but whether or not it was actually sourced as claimed will likely never be verified (the recipient is conveniently effectively blind).
But those that care about this story only seem to care about the story about the story, i.e., that there was effort to prevent propagating it.
I find it fascinating that every person who is hung up on this story doesn't care about the substance or relevance of it.
In regards to substance, it's a story about corruption. The corruption on its face is irrefutable (i.e., Hunter Biden was paid money in an attempt to purchase the influence of his father). That's genteel, old school corruption.
But the relevance of it is that Hunter himself is a private citizen and his (mis)conduct is not really newsworthy. But the implication of it is that his father is equally corrupt (which has not been shown), and that is the entire point of the story.
That charge of corruption is important to deflect any reports of corruption by the political rival of Hunter's father (of which there's significant reporting of such).
My commenting here is pointless yet necessary: pointless because I've yet to see a cogent rebuttal, and necessary because this topic is toxic and should be countered as best possible.
edit: 4th paragraph substance to relevance
Also, I think a fair discussion of Twitter moderation should include a post-mortem of one of their most famous mistakes, discussing what Twitter did and what should they have done differently, and not so much the story itself.
(Of course, the substance is also important, but this isn't the right place for that discussion.)
The story is radioactive. The veracity of it means nothing -- just the phrase is now a talking point, a campaign slogan.
If my points are correct per the prior comment, what good does it serve the people to be amplified in a short attention span economy? Why shine light on dialog that sucks oxygen out of the room?
HN is not the place to come to blows over tribal politics, but I think that discussing policies, strategies, and other political hacking is worthy of being explored if there's willingness to examine the impacts that these actions have.
This is an extraordinary technological measure. Plenty of things posted on Twitter turn out to be false, misleading, or not worth shining light on. This one turned out to be true, and yet earned the most extreme sanction Twitter is capable of: prior restraint on speech.
The findings per the GOP Senate committee: https://www.grassley.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/grassley_johns...
What was found to be true was that Hunter Biden was open to profiting from his association with his father (among other distasteful things).
What has not been found to be true (read the report and tell me otherwise), and that is that Joe Biden himself was corrupt and sold favors. If you cite the "10% for the big guy" quote, you also have to acknowledge that it was ready to be offered, but never shown to be accepted.
Don't you find it odd that will all the investigation that happened by his political enemies that Joe Biden was never charged with anything? Do you think that they would pounce on any opportunity to do so?
But it's been shown by people such as yourself that actual guilt doesn't matter -- just the accusation is good enough.
Also note that I offer no defense to Hunter because what he did was sleazy. I also note that those obsessed with the affaire d'laptop don't care about the corruption of his predecessor and family (specifically his son in law), which was far more vast in scope and in venality.
I am against corruption regardless of which party engages in it. Would you say the same is true for you, and if so, demonstrate that in some way?
But we're commenting on a story about moderation of online forums, not corruption of politicians. I don't find the emails especially incriminating, and I honestly find Joe Biden to be a pretty admirable person, not especially corrupt as politicians go. But I will never forget the way that the media and platforms like Twitter used their power to bury a story that turned out to be true. I believe they did so because it was inconvenient to their own personal biases and their investment in seeing Biden elected. I was invested in seeing Biden elected too! But our highest commitment must be to the truth. I have a deep distrust of people who would suppress true facts, especially when so many false or misleading narratives are circulated all the time.
As a great example of this, my comment that you replied to is currently rated at -1. It directly answers your question, it is not rude or impolite, and it is unquestionably true. And yet at least two people disliked it enough that they wanted to bury it. I don't know why those two people had that reaction, but that is exactly the behavior that I feel so distrustful of.
Contrast the Biden Laptop story with the Steele Dossier. That story was repeated endlessly in the media, with far more numerous and salacious accusations, which turned out to be almost totally discredited. Now I find Trump to be a repugnant figure, but the double standard here is infuriating to me. The truth should matter above all.
I share your opinion of Biden (not my first choice but a breath of fresh air after his predecessor).
I'd really like to come to a true understanding with you, because I want the truth to be promoted and lies and misinformation to be unamplified.
But I still don't understand what "true story" you are concerned about. The facts about Hunter himself seem to be true (corrupt and sleazy). But the whole point of the story wasn't about Hunter, it was an implied corruption of Joe.
So squelching the laptop story was about silencing effectively baseless conjecture that impugned the integrity of Joe Biden. That was the only point of the story -- to smear Joe.
Just like with Hillary's emails -- all that mattered was "she did bad" (which she did do, but in context it was quite insignificant. The amazing thing is these stories only seem to work one way: agains the Dems. There doesn't seem to be a single accusation against Trump that would dissuade his followers (his shooting someone on 5th Ave quote was frighteningly prescient).
The Steele Dossier was lurid but there's so much shady shit about Trump that it did raise credible concerns: is there kompromat on Trump? His behavior suggests so (absolute deference to Putin, money laundering accusations, etc.)
The essence of my concern is that we're flooded by misinformation and it's horribly effective, and more horribly so in the direction it seems to be effective (against the Left).
The laptop story is a lose/lose scenario. We lose if the story continues to echo and destabilize trust, and we lose when we try to prevent that act of erosion.
I'm not a fan of censorship but I also see the results of unfettered hate speech and lies that have literally demonized the Left and divided this country with no sign of letting up.
If the story had gotten to run its normal course, my overall opinion would be that it actually makes Biden look pretty good (20k emails and this is the most incriminating line that they could find?)
But the moment that Twitter took unprecedented measures to prevent the story from even being discussed, it became something that bothered me a lot.
The way to gain credibility in an age of misinformation is to make the truth your north star. To have credibility, you have to be willing to call out misinformation on your own side, like the Steele Dossier. To say that it "raises credible concerns" is to excuse misinformation. You asked me to demonstrate that I am against corruption regardless of which side does it. Can you demonstrate that you are against misinformation regardless of which side does it?
I applaud your faith in humanity but the same population isn't likely going to read the exonerating report that I cited elsewhere and will note here. Read the conclusion at the end and then tell me again why the laptop story still needs to be promoted:
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC%20-%20Fin...
> If the story had gotten to run its normal course
Nobody pushing that story cares about anything other than the story sticking around to be a campaign talking point.
The Steele Dossier is far more complicated because of its origins and handling (yes Clinton helped fund some of it but McCain and Comey were alarmed by it). It was also always framed as raw, unverified intel that, once public, compelled verification of it. At that time it was also paired with the Buttery Mails investigation which likely tipped the scales away from Clinton.
Read the wiki and you can see that it's not cut and dried. Meanwhile that whole thing has been turned into RussiaGate and categorically denied. MSM has dropped that line.
Nobody on the left is defending Hunter Biden. But again, he's not the candidate, so why is there such concern? Because it's ButteryMails v2. The laptop story is the story.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to condemn about the Dossier affair -- it had its moment in the sun and then was squashed, with the bonus that it's now projected that Trump is 100% innocent in regards to dealing with Russia and that just ain't the case.
> what should they have done differently
What do you think they should have done differently?
And to follow that up, in cases of incontrovertible misinformation, how do you think that should that be handled?
The quality was measured by a group that was selected due to their broad range of leanings. It should be in the final paper.
Some background: https://www.techdirt.com/2020/10/16/twitter-fixes-bad-policy...
It was a policy that had previously received criticism, and had already come into play in a significant story: https://www.techdirt.com/2020/09/16/content-moderation-case-...
And, following the laptop story, Twitter changed their policy on hacked materials.
And that's the thing with content moderation - specific examples of content moderation often themselves go viral, but often also shed the actual context of said moderation (as was the case in your example), and thus feed into existing narratives around bias in content moderation. With full context, one might still disagree with the policy, but the narrative falls away.
1. Is information a neutral abstract unit?
2. Is information as an abstract unit charged with a particular strange attractor?
3. Does language/words hold a particular charge?
4. Is language the life-form and humans the host-form?
Beyond the obvious, let's just suspend what we think is common sense.
"I love you" vs "I hate you"
There is a charge associated with both those sentences and probably at the discrete unit word level which may be associated with particular vowel structures/sounds. I've vaguely looked into a "universal language" of phenotypes/sounds/grammars. I believe it was like 16 and associated roughly 16 base sounds to 16 emotions and may even have found some evidence for cross-species use.
Polarization, partisanship, and radicalization receive a great deal of academic attention. (I can't speak to the public mind, or political hobbyists.)
The book Why We Are Polarized [2020] by Ezra Klein surveys what was known at the time. Nationalization of politics, consolidation of media, death of journalism, election reform, campaign spending. TLDR: Politics used to have weird coalitions, where party was not strongly associated with positions. Then people sorted. Then people's identities (positions) fused into a kind of super identity. Now party is a strong predictor of position.
Rachel Bitecofer https://twitter.com/RachelBitecofer researched (negative) partisanship and used to talk about it. I don't know of an otherwise good intro.
People have always self-radicalized. Pamphlets and zines. Social media made it a self renewing pandemic. Root cause is probably a combo of algorithmic hate machines and social isolation. (People are increasingly anxious and isolated. These para-social relationships fill the void.)
> "In fact, once again, I challenge you to think about it this way: could you make your content moderation decisions even if you didnʻt understand the language they were being spoken in?"
However, I think discussions of controversial subjects often fall under 'this content is a problem' type of thinking. I was banned from all the major Reddit Covid subreddits for politely noting that a lab leak was entirely plausible, even likely. I was banned from their major news subreddits for regularly discussing the economic agendas behind the vast majority of military invasions in both the present day and historically - for example, I'd note that the USA-Russia split seems to have got started in 2003 when Putin rejected an Exxon bid for majority control of Russia oil production, and then started jailing the Wall Street-linked oligarchs like Khodorkovsky. I was also banned from the Ukraine subreddit for noting that a negotiated settlement to the regional war was inevitable, even if Ukraine had to relinquish some territory inhabited mainly by Russia-speaking citizens. Banned from Neoliberal, for pointing out failures of neoliberalism. Etc.
In none of those cases did I start hurling nasty insults, spam-posting, etc. Clearly those subreddits and their mods have a particular 'keep the conversation on our preferred message' agenda, i.e. 'align with the hive mind or be excommunicated'. (Eventually I tired of this and deleted my account at Reddit).
Now, if Elon can change Twitter such that polite, even-tempered but off-desired-message content isn't actively suppressed, it will be a much better platform. However, will advertisers and other sources of revenue be pleased with such changes? That may be a major factor in how it all plays out.
and you were just "politely noting" things?
I struggle to believe you. Especially the one about noting economic causes of war...
Dozens if not hundreds of popular subreddits even have bots in place that will automatically ban you from subreddit (A) if you ever engage on any "wrong-think" subreddit (B) in any capacity, even if you're not a member of subreddit (A).