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Comment by oblib | Hacker News Reader

I think taking down the buyers is a the best tool we have right now for this issue.

And there are things we could do to make that easier, like putting a serial number on the converter on new cars and replacement parts. Requiring the make, model, and serial number of the car it was removed from, and a web site with a DB that has the ID number of cars they've been stolen from so buyers could check it.

Make those who buy and sell and steal them pay for it. For new car buyers all they be paying for is the addition of the serial number. Can't add much cost to engrave those during production.

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I thought the main selling point was scrapping the catalytic converter for the platinum and palladium inside. In that model a ID system for the catalytic converter itself isn't going to put to much friction on illicit activity.

It’s not like you can just crack it open and the expensive metal falls out though. It’s an industrial process.

Ummm, no that’s almost exactly how it works actually.

https://youtu.be/F8pd_p8gppE

Plus with literally hundreds of millions of dollars in profits there’s no problem doing some “industrial process“

Sort of. The bulk of that material you see is just a ceramic substrate. There's only a few grams of valuable metals in each converter.

It isn't hard to melt those metals out. I used melt aluminum in my backyard, and the forums for that had discussions on other metals. While a backyard process is not going to recover all the metal, it is still going to get plenty.

People would grind off the serial numbers and sell them on the secondary market, or for the metals. With motorcycles, for example, motors and frames have vin numbers stamped to help prevent this, but you’ll sometimes see cheap parts for sale with the vin cleaned off.

In case anyone thinks this is cost prohibitive or the tooling is rare, a $100 battery powered grinder you can buy from Home Depot will do this in five seconds. If you have a little less money and a little more time, a $5 flat file will do the same thing in a few minutes.

You know... we already have vehicle IDs on the body, the frame, and the engine on/in our cars. Those do lead to arrest every day here in the U.S.

Depends. The number stamping process does change the metal’s underlying metallurgy throughout the the metal where it was stamped. So unless you drill out the number through the entire metal (which is viable if you’re going to extract the minerals), there’s a possibility of reconstructing the serial number with some level of probability.

Happens with guns.

But that’s why you criminalize the trade of unmarked parts. Actually makes the prosecutor’s job easy that way rather than proving the part was actually stolen and not your retirement cat investment.

> The number stamping process does change the metal’s underlying metallurgy throughout the the metal where it was stamped. So unless you drill out the number through the entire metal (which is viable if you’re going to extract the minerals), there’s a possibility of reconstructing the serial number with some level of probability.

Do you happen to have more information on that?

Here’s an example of it in practice: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/why-police-wanted-se...

Other info is a google away, just search for reconstructed serial numbers or similar queries.

It’s not exactly a secret, but how successful it can be is.

Yeah: No one thinks it's mechanically difficult to remove identifiers. The point is to make such altered parts illegal to buy. Similar to VIN restrictions or handgun signifiers in many states.

The thieves do not care about this and neither do the scrappers. They’ll both grind the serials off within a minute of taking possession if they’re still there.

The point is that a cat with ground identifier is just as illegal to possess as one that is definitely stolen.

The issue then becomes "plausible deniability". You cannot claim you didn't know they were stolen if the serial number is ground off.

So whomever grind the numbers off, may as well cut it open and extract the metals. It puts a major obstacle in the supply chain.

Why can’t it be a felony to buy said items?

Because that's not what happens with stolen catalytic converters, so it wouldn't change anything. Stolen cathalytic converters are valuable due to precious metals that can be extracted from them.

We currently successfully regulate freon emissions. How do we do that? It surprises me that it's possible but it seems to work.

Probably has to do with not being able to earn a few hundred dollars in a few minutes with the education of how to use a simple cutting tool from Home Depot.

On the ground, the situation with CFC refrigerants is probably a lot leakier (pun intended) than you think.

There are a lot of AC systems repaired at stations that don't even own a recovery machine. (This is legal, so long as the system has already leaked out to nothing before starting the repair. I suspect that gets a wink and a nod a fair amount of the time.)

Some refrigerants can only be legally sold to resellers or to users with an EPA certification. Sounds strict, huh? Well...the 609 certification test can be done online, is open book, and cost me $25 and 15 minutes to get.

Okay, well, so much for that idea! :D

It already is. Pawnshops and a lot of other businesses are not allowed to buy items with defaced serial numbers in most states. The stolen converter fences are already operating outside the law and I think what he is saying is that the serial numbers are sort of irrelevant here because the stolen converters are getting melted down anyway and it’s not gonna be on the shelves anywhere for someone to spot.

I wonder if the scheme outlined is more or less stringent than the US's legal ability to track guns. For now, they require serial numbers, but my understanding is that the ATF is disallowed from using computers to track firearms. It would be ironic if catalytic converters ended up with stricter controls than guns.

That would be ironic af, but yes, that is basically what I'm suggesting.

We don’t have an amendment guaranteeing the right to own insane numbers of catalytic converters, however.

You have to license the buyers and make them account for every lb they recycle by having the serial numbers to compare it. They would have to submit those number as soon as the buy one. If the converter doesn't have one they can't buy it, and setting up stings for that would be pretty easy.

So they will just start selling those converters abroad. Toothless

Well, it starts locally. A meth head stealing a converter isn't going very far to sell it. Odds are most are sold to junkyards that sell them to a larger recycler that processes the PGMs.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that entire illegal market could move offshore without a trace.

Your local cat thief does not have connections overseas. This market only exists because domestic purchasers aren't regulated.

No, but there would probably be some middleman who has connections overseas, and would collect/ship converters for a fee.

I don't think serial numbers would help in this case, as the converters are stolen, precious metals extracted, and then those metals are sold. The bit that would likely be stamped with a serial number is likely discarded.

Yeah: Literally make it illegal for shops to possess the platinum or palladium without documentation of provenance.

Unless you're cool with the thefts that are going on, or think any government regulation is "overstepping."

> Unless you're cool with the thefts that are going on, or think any government regulation is "overstepping."

Strawmanning anyone who disagrees with you makes your position look worse.

You can process those metals in your backyard with a bag of charcoal. Sure industrial processes will extract more, but the backyard processes work.

Who is methhead steve selling his backyard, low yield, low grade platinum to? The value is because an industrial process can recover clean platinum.

Once you have a small sheet you go to a scrap yard and say your dead grandpa was a hobby jeweler and nobody wants to continue the hobby. The important part is make it into a form where nobody can recognize it.

The grade isn't as pure as industrial processes, but it isn't too bad. Likewise, while the yield isn't good, even if you collect 50% the value is high enough.

That's one of the things an auto shop can do for you. You don't need a new serial number or database; your VIN is good enough. But of course a thief can grind that off.

The other one is welding on the converter. It doesn't make it unstealable; but it's just not a quickie extraction anymore.

If your question is (as it should be), "What about legitimately fixing the converter? Can you still do that?" , I don't know.

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