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> I'm hoping with the PSVR2 launch that people will finally realize that the metaverse consists of way more than just meta and Horizon.

agreed. it's unfortunate that FB decided to just coin "Metaverse" since it's all encompassing. to your later point, it's as if Yahoo decided to launch a product called "Internet" and have it be an awful piece of software turning off everyone from the concept of the internet and pushing it back another decade simply due to terrible branding

Yes, this what drives me crazy. I don’t understand how so many smart and educated people fell for meta’s ad and marketing campaign. I guess the campaign was just so amazing for that many people to be mislead. Someone should rename their company into Internet and maybe enough people will believe that this new company is the sole owner and developer of the Internet

Haha, the 3d TV industry deserves some marketing hate too, and Google for their godawful crap cardboard platform.

I'll bet that once someone puts out a super polished platform with a handful of killer apps, it'll take off anyway. Right now even if you gave away preconfigured VR headsets to everyone for free they wouldn't use them

I strongly feel that meta already did create that super polished platform with Beat Saber as the first killer app. Not enough people are even willing to give it a try due to a combination of FB’s broken brand and the intimidating giant box that you have to put on your face. Hopefully, the new smaller form factors will help with the last problem

Or, you know, we played guitar hero and there's no need to relive the past with a screen 3 inches from your eyeballs?

You haven't tried modern VR yet have you? Google Cardboard doesn't count.

No, of course not. Just like I haven't tried bungee jumping.

Then why comment as if you know anything about it? I can see normal people doing that, but this is HN

Here's the part I responded to:

> Not enough people are even willing to give it a try due to a combination of FB’s broken brand and the intimidating giant box that you have to put on your face

I'm not willing to give it a try because it doesn't interest me, it has nothing to do with FB or being 'intimidated' buy a box. I just don't want to play things in VR, especially games that I've already played and the only new feature is '3 inches from face'

Yeah, fair enough, there's a tiny, tiny sliver of humanity that has no interest in fun

You should quit repeating "3 inches from face" though since it's misleading and pointless. There's this thing called a "lens" which can make something appear farther away than it really is, and they use this bold technology to make stuff in VR appear far enough away that it actually tricks your brain into thinking it's really there in 3D space

It's not so much "falling for it" as it is jumping on the bandwagon.

The hype is real, and mirthless smart people are just looking to cash in on Meta's billion dollar branding moves.

> It's not so much "falling for it" as it is jumping on the bandwagon.

I don't see much of a difference between the two. I can understand the non-techie masses doing this, but not what seems like the majority of HN users.

They didn't coin "metaverse" it comes from Snowcrash and was later evangelized by Mathew Ball.

True, but outside of HN-bubbles, where do you think most people first heard the term?

sure, to us nerds that's obvious. but not to my fiance, or to my mom. metaverse = FB

my parents definitely don't think metaverse = FB

if they don't associate metaverse with FB, then they most certainly don't associate metaverse with snowcrash nor matthew ball

I don't care about the metaverse. Just let me have fun playing some video games in VR.

I’ll do you one better…

It’s been almost 3 years since Half Life Alyx and nothing in the Vr space has come even remotely close.

It’s the killer app problem. There are a few very cool experiences in VR, but overall it a sad environment.

I have no doubt it’ll be big. Just curious on HOW SLOWLY it’s going.

My take is simply that the resolution is too low relative to average users expectations (set by their tv and smartphone).

Every single person with whom I have shared my Quest 2 has said something to the effect of “is it supposed to be so blurry?” and “this thing is uncomfortable”.

The tech is really cool - and the experiences are not totally there (as you say) - but it’s not developed enough as a product.

That sounds more like issues with IPD adjustment rather than resolution issues. I feel that resolution is already good enough for gaming especially if you pair the Quest 2 with a VR ready PC. The resolution only isn't good enough for work. Reading a lot of text on a Quest 2 is nausea inducing. Since the Quest Pro's resolution isn't much better than Quest 2, I don't have high hopes for it when work involves a lot of reading and writing, but Quest 2 is already great for design collaboration.

I agree that it’s “good enough” for gaming - but the Q2 has obviously much worse perceived resolution than most people’s televisions and phone screens (regardless of IPD adjustment).

We can hand wave away the poor resolution because the whole package is kind of amazing, but it undercuts the argument that ‘this is the future!’ when first impressions are that it looks like the past.

The Quest 2 is all about immersion and presence. Most people are impressed by that despite standalone limitations. Maybe they played the wrong games, or they don’t like to move? Sedentary people really hate VR from my anecdotal experience.

Graphics and visual fidelity can be solved easily. PCVR works well with the Quest 2

I don't think it's a killer app problem so much as a general UX issue. I really love RE4, I've played it 100x on the GC and Wii, I could play it in my sleep.

I got it on VR and it was awesome. It was so much more intense and fucking cool and extra flexible (I can hold a knife and a shotgun at the same time???? fucking amazing).

The main thing is that I don't want to just play video games. I like to jump around a bit and do other things. Switching apps is just really annoying in VR, usually it's not even possible.

Probably a better example is Netflix. I usually have TV shows on throughout the day, pausing them constantly for seconds, minutes, or hours, as I do something else, or often letting them play in the background. Can't do that on my Quest 2, it's either "sit in front of a TV and do nothing else" or don't.

To me, these issues are really more OS level/ platform level. The VR UX is out of whack with how I want to use it. Individually though, I can say that my experience is that a VR version of something can be way cooler.

Also, I'd like to have a keyboard interface. If I could wear something like fingerless gloves + have a keyboard hooked up and I just sit at my desk with N virtual monitors that would be amazing. But again, that's not really an "app" problem, it's the OS/platform/UX.

Wanting to multitask VR and non-VR workloads is...... unusual. You may be extremely niche here.

I don't know anyone who sits down to just do one thing, everyone hops between apps.

Believe it or not, some people are still able to focus, even in 2022.

Sounds niche.

I think I'd like that. Having some way to pop up an overlay that I can interact with (reply to a chat message, check a YT video, etc) while the game remains in the primary display. Sort of an AR in VR.

It makes me sad that not even VR is going to escape the pervasiveness of smartphones.

This is possible on PCVR

https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamVR/comments/manbp4/how_do_i_ge...

It’s not really possible on Quest 2 for the hardware intensive apps because it doesn’t have enough RAM and the Qualcomm XR2 is still a really weak processor compared to either Apple Silicon or anything AMD or Intel paired with an Nvidia GPU

I think we agree, but terminology wise its not a killer app problem. Its an install base problem. (which is a chicken and egg problem) If the install base was there, big studios would invest the time.

Yea, same-same.

It'll happen eventually, that projects like HL-A won't seem sooo risky and not require an entity like Valve that seems to have done it mostly for bragging rights - or something.

I think given the size and cost of games like this, it's going to be a very slow crawl... and not an explosion like iPhone was.

Multiplayer VR games are part of the metaverse… the metaverse is just XR with a network connection over the internet. That’s all it is which one reason I don’t understand all the hate for such a neutral medium from fellow techies

You miss the point that video games are not a top priority for meta, they are betting on work and casual users that will hang out all day long in their metaverse VR world with their goggles on, much like people use their phones nowadays, and then consume their ads.

If Zuck was smart, he could have a partnership with Sony and push out a launch title for this.

> You miss the point that video games are not a top priority for meta

If that were true, the work features would have shipped already, but they were busy with gaming which is why they bought several game studios. Games were a major focus for meta because it’s one of the traditional vectors for new technology adoption. Well, that and pornography.

Let’s hope that you’re right now assuming meta is changing course, and I’m wrong because I’ve been waiting to use the work features. So far, the 3rd party options and the resolution for reading text still isn’t good enough

Gaming is just the gateway drug to the Metaverse. And they probably bought the studios mainly for talent.

The recent launch of the Quest Pro was clearly focussing on use cases other than games, and the pro's resolution and pancake lenses appear to be now reached "good enough" to work with/read text in.

That's true, but a common reviewer complaint is that the work applications still aren't there yet. There are a few design VR apps, but most of the big productivity apps on the Meta store are just bookmarks to web apps. This changes when MS and Office arrive on the Quest.

I think you forgot Valve although they don’t seem to follow through with their hardware.

The WMR headsets are all pretty good, but the ecosystem suffers from the typical MSFT, "Oh yeah, we should build one of those too!" dynamic. Pretty good hardware, but a variety of factors which just end up failing to attract people to the platform in the long term.

See: Zune.

WMR is slowly being abandoned by MS. The G2 was a decent attempt, but HP is pulling out too

That’s why I didn’t mention them. They’re like Rolls Royce where they build expensive toys for people with discretionary cash. Most normal people outside of Silicon Valley do not have the resources to justify spending about $3,000 on a complete PCVR setup

I have the disposable income I cant justify it because I can’t multitask and also I have to also pay for glasses inserts. I want to play a space based VR game but I don’t see one out. I have a stand-alone headset (a oculus quest 2) and I don’t even play it.

You don't need glass inserts for the Meta Pro, and some other headsets. With PCVR, it is totally possible to multitask. You just have to both able and willing to pay for better systems.

Tbf the quest pro does exactly that. You can wear it with glasses and it’s designed to let you multitask

Elite Dangerous and No Man's Sky are both space-based PC VR games, if you're still looking around for one. Your quest 2 might be able to stream them from a PC.

My eyesight is _just_ able to play without glasses inserts, so I marginally feel your pain. I wish I could use my glasses. Maybe it's time I pulled out contacts again.

Saw them both but they aren't worth it. Forgot to mention.

What are you looking for in a space game? I also know that Overload (Descent clone) has a VR mode.

Overload sounds cool. I should check it out. Maybe since no man’s sky has been updated I will check it out again.

I really want a serious FPS with spaceships .

> their brand is so toxic

signed, 1 of 2,000,000,000 monthly active users across Messenger, Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram

Do you read the news or talk to people outside of Meta? Like it or not meta lost the PR war

Their users are trending older now, and the brunt of ad revenue will be destroyed eventually. Why do you think Mark pivoted the company?

> Like it or not meta lost the PR war

I don't disagree. HackerNews comments + Reddit insist the Meta is the worst thing ever.

Why? I don't know? Because HackerNews comments + Reddit sentiment said so? I'd love to learn why the company is so hated.

It can't be ignored that tons of people still "trust them enough" (begrudginly?) to use their products. Sure, a very vocal minority will say "I'm Meta free/use none of their products!" but that's not what their earnings shows trend wise.

> Meta's standard user metrics also show continuing stability and growth during Q3. Both Daily Active People ("DAP") and Monthly Active People ("MAP"), users of Meta's Family of Apps, grew sequentially by just over 1.5% in Q3, while Monthly Active Users ("MAU") and Daily Active Users ("DAU"), users of Facebook only, both grew 0.8%:

I agree with your points and I’m a fan of Meta, and I have skin in the game because I believe in the new company direction. However, I can’t ignore public sentiment. The Quest 2 is a revolutionary product that was nearly ignored just because it came from Facebook. Meta will do better once someone like Sony or more likely Apple convinces everyone that the metaverse is great.

Apple is the worst thing that could happen to VR.

Facebook may be 'toxic' but the Meta is cheap, amazing, supports Air Link for PC, even has cross-play (buy a Quest game, play it on PC at better graphics). Privacy options, they -removed- Facebook login, you can sideload apps. Tacit support for modding games like Beat Saber.

Apple would turn their headset into a walled garden with no ability to run custom apps and definitely no Air Link. Try to mod a game and get banned.

It’s ironic, but I like and support meta so I agree with your points.

Like meta, I also agree that Apple will be a double edged sword for XR. On the positive side, Apple will help the masses understand the potential of XR beyond gaming, and the M chips blow everything away. On the negative side, only we’ll be able to afford a $3000 XR Apple headset which will save meta’s XR related effort since they’re the affordable option. They’re scared of if, but whether or not Meta realizes it, meta needs that Apple headset to release

> Privacy options

Are we talking about the same Meta company that owns Facebook?

> they -removed- Facebook login

Which they added in the first place, much to the dismay of literally everyone.

Do you expect an equivalent Apple product to not require an iCloud login?

Apple, on the other hand, loves to talk about privacy, but if anyone in the conversation backs up messages to iCloud then the whole thing is sitting on Apple's server unencrypted[1]. WhatsApp is better.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2020/01/21/appl...

>>Apple is the worst thing that could happen to VR

Like they were for MP3 players, Smartphones, expensive headphones and Smartwatches?

I can't deploy my own developed app to my own devices permanently without paying $100/year.

Yes, I use Android.

I'm confused. Why not? Android lets you sideload.

If you want to develop on iPhone you need to pay to become a developer, $100/year. You can't just run whatever code you like on it.

Google is one-off $25 to publish on their store, but running your own code via sideload is free.

Yes, on iPhone. Parent said they used Android, hence my confusion.

Parent is saying "on iPhone I can't even install my own apps without paying $100, therefore I use (choose) Android".

They definitely innovated once. Nowadays they are mostly responsible for inflating high-end phone and headphone prices to ridiculous levels.

> they -removed- Facebook login

They called it something else, they make you use different credentials, but it’s all Facebook on the backend.

I believe its now a Meta Account.

I am no expert but it does seem to be an improvement because you don't have to install the FB app on your phone or login to FB on your browser. The app in particular is such a roach motel I am very glad to get away from it.

Source?

Whose backend should it be using? Apple’s?

An Apple headset and marketing dollars would galvanize the industry. Meta will still release their headsets and probably be better off for it because Apple will have primed consumers to what the experience is. Apple doesn't usually pay for exclusives so apps will make it to other platforms.

Removed the Facebook login? Lol, now it prompts me every-time I use it to create a Horizon's account. I personally couldn't care less about the facebook login, and really never saw what the big deal was. I created a facebook account which I only use for the quest 2. You're going to need an account, what does it matter which platform it is from?

I'm sick of people criticizing Apple's walled garden. It's the primary feature of Apple products. It's what makes them what they are. If you don't like it, just buy something else. No one is forcing you to buy Apple if you don't like the walled garden. Many people like it and I'm amazed that there are so many people that don't understand that.

If you like the walled garden fine, I just don't want it influencing VR. For example Apple's decision to take a 30% cut of ebooks, prompting Kindle to remove the ability to buy books in their app, led to Google doing the same thing.

Apple will lock down the hardware and increase prices, and that doesn't benefit consumers if other companies follow suit.

Meta built an amazing, affordable product, but their brand is just so toxic that it’ll take a generational change before it can eventually recover its good will and people in developed countries trust it again.

It's not their brand per se that's the issue, but the fact that their headsets were bricks unless you had signed up for a Facebook account with all the issues that come with that, from privacy concerns to getting locked out seemingly on a whim: https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/j22lmx/im_out_...

The response from Meta still leaves a lot to be desired: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/07/quest-vr-has-traded-f...

Less important than Meta rehabbing their brand image would be them actually putting a stop to their user hostile behavior.

This isn’t true. You’ve always been able to use a headset with an oculus account. More recently you had to switch to a Meta account. Neither of those are Facebook accounts.

Source: never had Facebook, but have had Quests

I also never had to connect my (rift) headset to a Facebook account, but wasn't there a period when new quests needed to be connected to Facebook accounts?

If you didn't have a previously-existing Oculus account, there was a period in which you were forced to use your Facebook account. I think this was since the release of Quest 2, up until a few months ago.

This sounds like it could be right - I was pretty early on the oculus bandwagon - then only recently had to "upgrade to meta".

To answer some of the siblings. Yes a Meta account is not a Facebook account. Facebook = A product. Just like an Instagram account isn't a Facebook account either. But they are both 'meta'.

Meta essentially end-of-lifed oculus accounts but transitioned them to Meta. I think (myself included) people would not have liked being forced into another product.