Comment by globular-toast | Hacker News Reader

Comment by globular-toast | Hacker News Reader

I used to be really depressed about this sort of thing. It caused me to severely limit my lifestyle out of a desire to "do the right thing". I didn't own a car. Very low consumption and minimal waste (no takeaway food, coffee etc., very frugal, didn't use things like paper towels and napkins). I cycled and walked everywhere. Didn't go on holidays abroad or even very far away.

Then I looked around and noticed that everyone else was enjoying themselves at my expense. Worse, I was often a second-class citizen as my bicycle couldn't stand up to their cars.

So I said fuck it, bought a car, fly several times a year, use paper towels, drive to the air-conditioned gym so my body looks like it's useful, don't care about my waste as much. Can't beat 'em, join 'em. I still reckon I use and waste less than the average person (certainly less than the average American), though.

I can be happy with this because I'm not going to reproduce. I honestly don't care if humans die out a few generations after me. I used to care but I just don't think we are worth it any more.

It sounds like you're bitter because you think having all people take personal responsibility for their own actions is the only solution, and you don't see people doing that. I used to feel similarly.

But I think the real problem is not the moral failings of individuals; I think the real problem is that we've collectively built a system that rewards people for doing the wrong thing. If we can collectively decide to fix the system to reward better behavior, then everyone wins. This is still a tremendously difficult undertaking, but it at least feels possible to me.

So nowadays I try to spend my efforts pushing for systemic change instead of worrying about how much plastic I used today or whatever. In some cases this still boils down to individual action, like when I bought my first EV, but in that case I didn't buy it to try to cut down my own emissions, I bought it to try to help fund EV R&D, raise awareness of EVs, and help companies scale up manufacturing and whatnot.

Not only does working for systemic change give me more hope, it's also more personally satisfying to feel like part of a broader movement to build a better world, rather than feeling like I'm just one tiny drop in a bucket of individuals trying to limit their own damage.

I definitely do not think people taking personal responsibility is the solution. Quite the opposite. I believe the only way it top-down enforcement of cutbacks for everyone. A giant reset button. I simply don't think we have the ability to do that. COVID was a nice try but we couldn't resist going back to "normal".

Buying an EV is a no-op that makes people feel good for sacrificing nothing. You need to get a bicycle instead.

I like the idea of a system that rewards people for doing the right thing. I'd like it even more if such a system existed.

When you say systemic change, do you extend that to actually serious discussions of rewriting the system from the ground up?

Of course, most everyone will think this is absurd and no one will agree with it, but that does not prevent some of us from talking about it.

This is exactly why voluntary individual action tends to be really ineffective at stuff like this, absent massive cultural support (e.g. consistent, widespread shaming and shunning those who defect). It's one of the main reasons government is, in fact, useful—it can be impossible to get out of these kinds of holes even when a large majority want to, without someone to make everybody play by the rules.

The core problem is exactly what you noticed: that you can be personally paying, in relative terms, a large cost, while having no meaningful effect, and while others are choosing not to pay that cost and doing much better than you. When the world where you defect is functionally indistinguishable from the one in which you stick with it aside from that you'd be happier in the former, it's hard to justify continuing.

The worst thing is if anything riding a bicycle is shunned while driving a car is accepted!

Not having children makes your carbon footprint miniscule compared to everyone who does, so you're still doing the right thing.

I’m still on the side of cyclists. I don’t think I’d be able to stand a lifestyle where I’m surrounded by people in denial. I have a child but I don’t think I’ll raise her in the belief that only a comfortable life is one worth living.

I’m also wondering by who childless people expect to be taken care of when they get older, if not by their children in a broad sense?

You expect your child to take care of you?

None of us know what the future holds. You might very well have nobody to care for you either. Your children are free agents and might move to the other side of the world or might simply not care about you. Like me you'll probably choose not to overly concern yourself with this.

Well, I feel responsible for those who need to get cared for. I take care of my parents and I’ll do more so in the future. Many people have cared for me when I was in need. I believe there’s a good chance that my children, as free agents, will choose to take care for me when I need it.

I also mean it in a more generational sense.

Your comment annoyed me so I started typing a response but then I remembered that you might be a real person with debt who worries about a sick relative, so it’s just not that big a deal.

I think about giving up around 30 almost every day, but am scared I won’t have the courage to do so. More realistically I see my end in the cold on a street saying random things out loud while someone walks by feeling a mixture of discomfort, annoyance and guilt.

Hey, this second paragraph is really dark. I don't really know how to say it right but I wish you something better, more comfortable, more exciting, and guilt-free.

The fact that others are kicking an old lady to death doesn't mean you should join them. Do what you think is right even if it doesn't change anything. Avoiding flights isn't a big price to pay.

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