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Comment by koonsolo | Hacker News Reader

This "too cool for stuff" sounds like US culture. I never experienced that kind of thing in EU. We each had our own friend groups, and didn't really care what the other groups were into.

I once heard an artist say (can't remember which one), that they loved playing in Europe, since everyone at a festival is there to have fun. While in US, everyone is there to look cool.

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I wish this was true but unfortunately, I must disagree with saying that it is different in Europe. In France, 10 years ago, high-school was a constant lookout for who's the 'popular' kids (literally called like that). And reversely, nerds kid would often be made fun of, or socially excluded from breaks / activities. However, i have talked about this before with my wife who's from Italy and said that she never experienced this in Italy, apparently it was like you described: groups of friends, into studying and trying to make it to the next year. I wish it was like that in France.

However, I very much enjoy the original's post analysis about 'being into things', I think it's just brilliantly exposed !

>I wish this was true but unfortunately, I must disagree with saying that it is different in Europe. In France, 10 years ago, high-school was a constant lookout for who's the 'popular' kids (literally called like that).

A lot of this is a recentish phenomenon with kids mimicking what they see in US made movies and tv series - and also a whole lot more toned down than in the US.

>And reversely, nerds kid would often be made fun of, or socially excluded from breaks / activities

As a nerd, this has always been going on everywhere, and it's basically by definition, as people describe as "nerds" not just people that are good at school and have scientific and brainy interests, but the subset of the above that are socially clumsy, not into sports and the popular social activities, etc part of being a nerd.

Kids with "nerd" interests that are also socially savvy and also like the stuff the majority does, are still popular.

So, nerds being excluded in this sense is almost a tautology, and in many areas, even happens by preference (e.g. not liking parties and drinking). Of course one could argue that we nerds would like them if those were more into our preferences, but, well, those are not the preferences of the wider school population. So this is not exactly active ostracizing, just the 90% not changing what they like to accomondate the 10%).

Would a nerd be targetted for bullying? Yes, but in the same sense that a non-nerdy "weird" kid, a kid with a disability, a fat kid, an "ugly" kid, etc. It's not particular about being a nerd, it's about being different - and it's not built into the wider structure of school life like some kind of appartheid between groups, the way it seems to be in the US. And the bullies are not groups, like the popular kids or the jocks vs the nerds, but individuals. The bullies are usually are not even popular (just the school's sadistic kids with troubled homes and no future).

There are also not explicit popularity contests built into the school life, like "the prom", cheerleading, or some jock sport being a "big thing" with official school teams and everything, which appears to be the case in the US. If anything, the equivalent of the "popular" kids in some European countries would be the "cool kids" and those are not into school sports or popularity contests at all (more like the opposite).

So, the forces at play here are not as strong as described (from accounts I've read) in the US in any European country that I know of.

It's a pointless effort to box the whole Europe into one stereotype, it's too diverse for that.

From my POV, the school social structure in USA seems very "schematic". Like there are popular kids and they look like this and have these attitudes, then there are geeks who are socially awkward and physically weak, then there are jocks etc.

My experience from growing up in Czechia was way more "random". There are kids who are more prominent than others, of course, but there aren't really many stereotypes to them. Some of them are dumb, but many of them are also pretty smart and have strong interests. All these people qualities are there, but they are not strongly categorized and appear in various permutations.

There's no good translation for "geek/nerd/jock" in Czech, like you would probably need to spend 2/3 sentences to explain each of them. You can translate "popular kid" literally, but it's not a concept being used. Kids of course still associate into various cliques, they just aren't "schematic".

>From my POV, the school social structure in USA seems very "schematic". Like there are popular kids and they look like this and have these attitudes, then there are geeks who are socially awkward and physically weak, then there are jocks etc.

What are the odds your POV is coming from television and movies?

It surely comes from television and movies, that's where I first got to know it. And for many years I thought that this is just a media illusion.

But seeing real conversations using those stereotypes ("I was your typical nerd kid at school") here, on reddit and even talking to people IRL convinced me that this "caste system" does actually exist in real life (of course not to the overblown degree shown in movies).

> What are the odds your POV is coming from television and movies?

I'd be interested to know what the odds are that students themselves are self-selecting into categories based on what they seen in TV and movies.

Today it would be more IG and Tiktok, but what even are those if not micro-reality TV full of tryhards desperate to get a TV deal?

“It's a pointless effort to box the whole Europe into one stereotype, it's too diverse for that.

“From my POV, the school social structure in USA seems very […]”

I agree that it’s harder to generalize over all of Europe.

FYI, the US and Europe are roughly the same population and size (ignoring, as ever, poor Alaska) — ~350 million vs ~500 million, and ~8 million square miles vs ~5 million square miles.

While the US is considerably more culturally homogeneous than Europe, it is also quite hard to generalize across the United States.

Europe is actually 750 million. EU != Europe (EU had ~500 million before brexit)

Yes, and if you include the Russian bits the size comparison changes considerably.

In my experience, when non-Europeans say “Europe” they mean something like “the union of the EU and the EEA and the UK”. They probably exclude Russia and a few of the Russian-adjacent states, and if they think of Iceland, they include the part on the North American plate as well as the Eurasian plate.

More like France + Germany and maybe UK.

I saw that in movies but not in real life going to HS in the US. People had friend groups but it wasn't uber-insular. The star quarterback can't really call you out for being a nerd when you're in the same calculus class

So controversial anecdote: I was an exchange student in france (from denmark) for a few months - when i was around 14. And i was shocked to my core when i saw how teachers and the schoolsystem was put together.

There was a boy in my class that had difficulties at home and struggled in school (daydreaming instead of focusing etc) and i clearly remember this scene where the teacher mocked him infront of the class saying stuff like "looking out the window again are we, no wonder you're slow and stupid when you dont participate" - queue the other kids laughing.

This happened across classes, multiple times with different people. The teachers where petty, confrontational towards other with differing opinions and did not enjoy being challenged in any ways, shape or form.

(I landed myself at the principals office multiple time by defending the vulnerable ones against draconic teachers) - and i'm not sure if it's still allowed - but i witnessed multiple times where teachers hit students.

(This was a "good" school btw.)

It was clearly an institutional culture, and they didn't know what to do with me because i came from the complete opposite and had the moral highground constantly - the kids where sad when i went back, the teachers (& principal) happy.

Oh, and the actual level of teaching was super bad, all learning by hearth - no "think for yourself", composition or divergent thinking allowed

Yes the educational culture in France is really into public shaming. You can directly see its effect on the rest of the culture

btw "cue the other kids laughing", rather than queue. In stage acting a cue is a signal to synchronize things like a new player entering the stage.

Thanks appreciated!

Also “were”, not “where”.

maybe they get the kids all lined up and ready to take their turn laughing; that feels like a public school-type activity.

Was it in a private or public school? Anecdotal but I've never seen that when I was in school in the 90s. Friends who went to "good" private schools though complained about public shaming and had similar experiences to the one you had.

Also in terms of teaching, I actually appreciated the fact that we had a lot of compositions that emphasised critical thinking (more so than I had when I went to Germany for 6 months as an exchange student). Wonder if that's because things have changed since the 90s or if it's due to the private/public school difference.

On the other hand, I was very heavily bullied in middle school but that was by other kids not by professors. And once I got to High school the bullying completely stopped.

This was actually a public school in "thonon sur le mans" (lake geneve)

Oh that's sad that it'd happen even in a public school. When was that?

I was also in a French highschool around 10 years ago but I was lucky enough to have different experience that yours. People part of the "geek" group (like myself) were never excluded from activities and had good relations with the so called popular kids.

It was a time where playing Magic the gathering was really popular so I guess that reduced the stigmatization of nerdy kids.

Can confirm (though only anecdotally). I was bullied a lot in middle school. But in high school I got into customizing Sony Ericsson mobiles (changing the font, making custom themes with their SDK), javascript programming (entered a few competitions with some fellow nerds), music and singing in the choir and the theater. Somehow those things got me respect, admiration, and a girlfriend. As the "to cool for fun" kinds were slowly adulting up, they realized I have lots of opportunity to learn stuff and to socialize, lots of confidence too (most don't even dare to sing in music class), and will get into whatever college I want with whatever customized resume I want. I had a straight vision for a career in mechanical engineering (though am currently in IT), while they struggled to find a path in life in college application season.

Nonsense. As ever so often, the German language even has an own word that kids use to deride peers who are too invested in learning stuff, or even just commit the offense of having better grades in school. Similar for other countries, I'd say European countries are no less hostile to nerdy kids than the US, at best.

Ahh, been a while since I’ve been able to use the British English term ‘swot’

- she’s such a swot

- I need to swot up on this

- don’t be so swotty

- look at that swot with his books

It's not a US thing and not even necessarily related to being bullied in school. Lots of parents scold their children for being into useless or eclectic hobbies.

Even in a relatively more homogenous North America individual experiences are going to differ greatly. I think it's more illustrative to compare your public school years with post secondary, that's where I saw a huge difference.IMO the attributes that were mocked (and thus likely supressed) suddenly become unique and desireable. This might have been because if you somehow managed to maintain "the good type of weird" just when so many young adults were trying to figure out who they really were, you were ahead of the game.

It's a nice sentiment but really isn't accurate.... unless you're suggesting nerds don't get bullied in Europe

Not in the same way. US high school clique dynamics are very much US-specific.

I was the nerd-ish type as a teenager back in 1990s Eastern Europe and I don't remember getting bullied. I knew things were slightly different in the US, I mean the whole "cool girls" group thing and all, as we were able to watch stuff like Saved by the Bell [1] on TV, but that kind of atmosphere seemed strange to us at the time.

[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096694/

Same exact thing for me. Nerds definitely weren't getting bullied, if you were good at maths and physics maybe girls weren't into you but the "bullies" didn't really mess with people who were good at sciences(I guess partially because they had to copy their homework from someone, so keeping good relations with the "nerds" was actually a good survival strategy)

> I guess partially because they had to copy their homework from someone, so keeping good relations with the "nerds" was actually a good survival strategy

I was about to also mention the "copy homework" part, but I thought that would have sounded too specific, certainly glad that I wasn't the only one to whom that happened :) I've had a former highschool colleague thank me for everything I had helped her with during high-school at our 20 years reunion recently, she was a very smart person back then (still is) but the Physics classes just weren't for her.

I did not noticed nerd vs jock dichotomy the way Americans write about it on discussion forums at all. Nothing similar to movies stereotypes either.

And my experience from my school is not like that either. You could have been "geek" or "nerd" or onto something and no one cared. Being good at something was cool or neutral.

As a pretty nerdish guy (Computers, space program, star trek, electronics, miniatures painting) in our central European equivalent of high school, I don't remember instances of bullying against me. Bullying was something that we were aware of, sure, but it seemed to come from (US-centered, go figure) media, and henfighting between the girls.

Its funny that this is still a thing - the only reason why bullying happens is because the culture of it is not broken by the school itself.

My kids go to a scholl where: 1: you can only ever arrange playdates or gatherings with a maximum of 2 other kids - or its the whole class 2: bullying is not allowed in any way shape or form 3: no one is allowed to exclude others from games, plays or events 4: this is rigorously enforced 5: no smartphones or the likes until 4th grade (11-12)

This is then instilled in parents and kids, any crossing of those lines is debated in a democratic way and creates a selfenforcing positive feedback Loop

I think you have an extremely naive view of both children and bullying. My daughter goes to a school with very similar rules, and they're followed up by the school, and if you where to talk to the parents I'm sure at least half of them would claim that the school has no bullying or at least handles it very well. And despite all this, my daughter still got horribly bullied by her classmates.

No not really, was bullied myself, understands the dynamics and bullying is a group phenomenon - not a one on one. If your peers a very aware of it not being allowed and discouraging it - you dont't get the social "credits" for applying it and it fizzles - then again if you dont learn the lesson you're expelled.

Works

Works

I disagree. Sure you can stop the most obvious and visible bullying, like physical altercations and obnoxious name calling, and make people generally 'behave' themselves while at school, but that just means the bullies becomes more careful and subtle, not that they stop.

At my school, no rules - or kids - had to be "broken". It was not supression of a behaviour, the behaviour just did not exist. If people behaved badly, the group was self-governing, making clear to the offender that their behaviour was "not cool" - and thus, they weren't. If you have a cultural problem that shows itself in bullying, fire the teachers. Also consider stopping adversarial school activities.

If these rules extends to life outside of school, I would be concerned more than relieved by rules 1 and 3. We should not normalise state-level control of our private gatherings by teaching freedom of association is somehow evil in children. It also would give a group of kids no way to sanction against antisocial behaviour by another kid (cheating in a game comes to mind).

That this has the thin varnish of "democratic debate" (which, let's be honest, will be quickly overruled if the kids decide the rules are stupid) only adds the additional aspect of showing in real-life how democracy is a scam that enforces things the powers to be like to happen while giving the impression it was a majority decision.

it was not supression of a behaviour, the behaviour just did not exist

Or you just didn't see and experience it. There is more to bullying than everybody standing in a circle and openly making fun of the "nerd". Most successful bullies are very good at hiding their bullying from people they know wouldn't approve. Having had the unfortunate experience of seeing my daughter get bullied, bullies are sneaky, insidious and very good at keeping their behaviour just on the right side of plausible deniability. I fully believe that over half of her class had no idea she was being bullied.

Well added to that is that you have to take every single one in your class home for a playdate at least once, and that multiple playdates in a row with the same kids are discouraged. It seems draconic and controlling - but it creates an incredible cohesive social group in each class

It seems like it actively discourages creating bonds and friendships in exchange of a "greater common good".

It also seems like they should have gotten an ethics committee approval on what is very obviously a psychological experiment on minors, similar to Muzafer Sherif's "Robber's Cave" [1]?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbers_Cave_Experiment

Nerds can be bullied everywhere.

The difference with the US is about the social dynamics and the organization of school life, not about whether a nerd might be bullied.

The same way school shootings are an order of magnitude or two less common in Europe, in an total area with more population than the US has.

nerds don't get bullied in Europe

While some 'nerds' certainly did (and do) get bullied, in my experience they where just as likely to get bullied by other 'nerds' as they where to get bullied by 'jocks'. You didn't get bullied because you played D&D or Warhammer or where good at math, you got bullied because you where weird and anti-social and unable to successfully navigate the unwritten social norms expected of you. Lots of people got straight A's in math and science and played Warhammer and had no problem with bullying.

It depends on what you call 'nerd' I guess. I learned myself how to program at 14. Never got bullied for that, and my friends all thought that was cool.

Did kids get bullied? Sure. But it had more to do with social awkwardness than certain interests or school results.

And for the 'popular kids', I could not define who the popular kids in my school could be. Not all girls would try to hang out with certain guys. Each girl had their own interests and that could differ a lot. A concept like a "prom king or queen" for me is totally out of this world. I cannot imagine that concept in my youth, and could also have no clue who the hell would be nominated for such a thing. In my adult life now? Sure, probably the guy with the successful business driving the sports car. In my youth, no idea, nobody stood out like that.

Definitely a thing in the UK. Tall poppy syndrome - you didn't want to stand out in any way.

I went to Infest (an industrial music festival) in Bradford quite a lot (sadly it looks like Bradford Uni are not doing events any more, so there might not be another one unless they find a venue :-/ ). It was more like an industrial music *conference* than a festival - you'd be hard-pressed to throw a tennis ball anywhere in the venue without hitting some highly-regarded musician. Like, you watch a big-name band on stage, and then ten minutes later you're standing at the bar with them comparing curry houses (and Bradford has a lot of those). There's a Green Room, sure, but the interesting people are out front watching bands.

I don't think you get that anywhere else.

It's definitely also a think in the UK

I feel like the US's focus on high school sports means that the jock stereotype stays at the top of the highschool social hierarchy. The macho/ball-breaking culture of jocks means that the typical nerd gets bullied. Also, college admissions' aren't "holistic" here, so the typical nerd is not penalized for mix-maxing into his stats. (if you'd excuse my RPG lingo for a moment)

I also grew up in the EU, but without knowing anything, my first guess is that this might be generational, and I assume you are a decade or so younger than GP (unproven hypothesis).

GP's experience feels extremely familiar to mine, even including the later realizations, and this from growing up across the pond.

I was born in 1979.

It's a human nature thing, the US did not invent the concept of bullying or being made to feel judged for being different.

You just happened to grow up around good people, but not everyone is as lucky unfortunately.

I think it's more generational than anything. Gen X and elder Millennials both shared this attitude when we were younger, but I don't think it applies to our younger counterparts.

"Too cool for stuff" is definitely a global thing.

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