Then further down the form they require you to record a video introducing yourself and telling them why they should hire you.
Ended up closing the form right there.
Do these people not realize how annoying their process is and how talented people don’t have to put up with crap like this?
Despite their (supposedly) knowing that, they put me through all their HR hoops anyway, all the way to a final interview, when the manager I'd have worked for looked across the table at me and said, "So what sort of salary would you have in mind?"
I looked him in the eye, didn't blink, didn't blush. Repeated the figure I'd given up front. The interview was over.
Why the fuck did they bother with all the palaver when they knew they were never going to pay that much. Did they think I'd blink?
Last laugh: I ended up doing a short consulting stint there several years later and took more off them in a couple of weeks than the annual salary they'd failed to meet.
This is still a dream of mine. I'd like to pull this off somehow. The answer is apparently not "Fiverr" or "Upwork".
1. having a network of trusted people you've worked with in the past
2. building some sort of public reputation where people seek you out.
They're not mutually exclusive, but #1 is probably easiest for people already in a job. Go to networking events (covid has muted a lot of this, I know, but it's coming back). Tell people you're looking for consulting work or open to new jobs. Be nice.
Yes, the answer for most people is not fiverr or upwork. I've known a few folks who've done good there, but they're outliers in my network. And even then, the few businesses I've known that have used platforms like that use it as a test ground, and then go direct with someone they click with.
That said, I've never taken a full year salary in 2 weeks. I have taken my own full year salary matching my early earning days from 30 years ago in 2-3 months now.
I believe the thinking is: "This is a great filter to ensure we only get great and passionate people!" when the reality is: "This is a great filter to ensure that only desperate or unimaginative people will apply!"
This keeps getting repeated. But honestly these days I can't tell the god damn difference. What is malice, other than incompetent people struggling to survive like anyone else, and paradoxically sticking up for each other through the same repetitive cycle of abuse that prevents them from aspiring to competence?
Functionally, though, your experiences may be very similar on the receiving end of incompetence vs malice.
edit: I want to append this to say: The purpose of the original phrase in my opinion was to encourage cooperation and communication as the solution. In a sufficiently structured corporate environment this solution may be impossible for reasons other than malicious behavior, in which case the statement is without practical value.
I agree that this might have been the original intention, yet the phrase has become a way of virtue signaling and looking down on those who assume malice. IMHO, difference is minuscule, because in many cases consequences are the same.
Malice is a legal, quasi-religious concept. A tiger can also quite actively exploit weaknesses and imbalances for the harm of its prey, yet we don't judge the animal as malicious - because we don't attribute concsiousness to it in the same way we attribute it to humans.
To have "malice", you need "intent", for which you need need "consciousness", in the classical folk understanding of the term: taking "selfhood", "free will", and "adequate theory of mind" as axioms. Whatever the scientific consensus on those, they seem to have little explanatory power in the domain of business. They're also a pretty high bar, so to speak - certainly higher than we give 'em credit for.
If those words really meant what they purported to mean, we'd be functioning in a much more humane economy; but for whatever reason these concepts just don't "stick" to what's really going on in the day-to-day. They're just the wishful thinking of Western humanist authors who were trying to set an example, i.e. mold the world in their own image a little bit.
> Functionally, though, your experiences may be very similar on the receiving end of incompetence vs malice.
Precisely. And since we're just people who just have objectives to accomplish, and our understanding of the consciousness of others takes at best a pragmatic role in pursuing those, our response to others failing us ends up being essentially the same: looking for ways to enforce compliance so that the counterparty delivers.
At the end of the day, "attributing malice" vs. "attributing incompetence" is about saving face - for the counterparty as well as for ourselves. Either way, dedicating effort to saving face detracts from the effort of understanding the problem at hand, which like you said is fundamentally structural.
> A tiger can also quite actively exploit weaknesses and imbalances for the harm of its prey, yet we don't judge the animal as malicious
A tiger is not malicious when it harms prey, because the intent is survival, and it cannot have that without harm. The survival of abusive CEOs and managers does not require harm to be done to anyone, yet they do it (sometimes for no tangible benefit).
> To have "malice", you need "intent"
You need not intend for your actions to be malicious, for them to be. If you are willfully ignorant of malicious consequences of your actions, your actions are still malicious. This is why "I didn't know what I was doing was harming people" defense doesn't fly, not in the legal sense and not in the moral. At some point it is your duty to determine the consequences of your actions, and something being your job is definitely over that threshold.
I think this is almost the same point as parent, albeit slightly askew from that one.
The hint is in your use of the word “willfully” — that is, you know what you are doing will result in harm, and you choose to do it anyway.
A difference is that “intending to harm” may be a differently intractable behavior because it is effectively sadism. That is a tighter reward loop than “pretending it doesn’t harm” which can just be avoidance.
Of course whether or not you can ever learn which of those (if it isn’t both) you’re dealing with is an entirely different matter.
We agree on the tiger, though I do wonder what she would say if she could explain her actions.
No, you _don't know_ the consequences and you don't bother finding out before doing it.
Actually this thought process has been problematic for me. Seeing that everyone is actually incompetent is more dangerous than there being a reason (good, bad or otherwise) for their actions.
While this is true — I would be very surprised if anyone was actively malicious towards their hiring pool — it's not an important distinction when trying to decide which employer to apply for.
Oh I completely agree.
The funny thing is I actively enjoy writing - but I look at the long questionnaire for some otherwise quite attractive companies and sigh, and assume that everything internally is just as clueless and so just pass them by for a company who won't waste my time.
I no longer subscribe to this line of thought after seeing several borderline sociopaths use this very same mental model in order to try and manipulate people into doing their bidding.
As I see it, "intentional failure" is just a euphemism for sabotage.
https://www.theskimm.com/wellness/weaponized-incompetence
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/weaponized-incompeten...
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/weaponized-incompetence-women...
Assume this were true. Even if this were the case, this might backfire: "passionate" easily works against a company.
This means that if you filter for passionate people, but reject such passionate candidates, these candidates might passionately work against your company (e.g. tell every friend what a shithole of a company this is etc.).
So, filtering for passionate people in the hiring process (even if it worked) is in my opinion dangerous idea.
I work for John Deere, one of those companies that (where I live) has a lot of loyal customers who teach their children we are the best. Even still the majority of great people I work with just want to work their job and go home. (to avoid burn out we don't allow the passionate to work more than 8 hours very often, so the difference between great; and great and passionate isn't significant)
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Please stop saying this, especially if you have no actual evidence of incompetence. It's the equivalent of clicking your heels together three times because you really, really don't want to live in a world full of casual malice. Wishing doesn't make it so.
He was genuinely confused as to why I wasn't excited by this "opportunity".
Easy. They select for compliance, not skill.
It's considerate of an applicants time by saving them the hassle about price conversation up front. That's for your benefit, not theirs (they lose the "grip" they might otherwise have at price negotiation time due to your sunk cost, which is totally to their benefit). Some applicants know to ask about wage this early, but many don't, so it's equalizing to let anyone opt out pre-pipeline, not just the confident men who've done a billion interviews and know to ask asap.
As for video, that feels like a company trying to supplement a prior process that used to lean a lot on in-person networking and associated soft skills assessment, which is lost in online apply processes. Not everyone feels at ease in networking settings, and so many ppl don't show up to those "meet first" spaces. This is giving the introverts and non-urban ppl a way to enter their pipeline while still requiring those applicants to put some of their personality on the table early on in the filter.
I dunno, I don't get the criticisms in this sub-thread, but I assume commenters have a neurotype that this specifically rubs the wrong way?
Regarding price conversation, salary is always negotiable after an offer is made even when an employer says that it isn't, the applicant just needs to be willing to say no.
My favorite one was an employer who low-balled me for a job in NYC. Then he says "I know people who live in Pennsylvania and commute in [read: the wage doesnt have to be sustenance wage in NYC/suburbs, you can just commute to somewhere far away]." suggesting that one can make budgets work if one tries hard enough.
Is this true outside of tech? The only application I ever did in finance/accounting that wasn't one of these annoying forms was an IB interview I got through nepotistic networking, nothing to do with my talent.
Jobs that pay well can treat their people worse - though worse treatment is weird. There are places that treat their people well, but because the job is considered unethical by many they have to pay more.
Technically they can.
But on practice, jobs that treat people badly also tend to pay badly.
that kind of sums it up - talented people won't apply there as they won't be compensated and they will leave - waste of time.