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Comment by cirgue | Hacker News Reader

> WFH is only going to make this worse.

My social life has improved massively since WFH became the norm. I eat lunch with my neighbors most days, I work from friends places/they work at mine on the reg, and it is way easier to have the energy to go out for dinner/drinks/other activities after work. I went to Chicago for a week last month to hang out with my friend and his wife and no one had to take any vacation days to make it happen. Everyone's situation is different, but I have a tough time imagining that WFH is going to lead to a reduction in socialization on balance if people are now able to control their schedules more easily.

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There is a big difference between socializing with existing friends and making new friends. I can dig it up somewhere, but I recall a study that pointed to something along the lines of "serendipitous time together" as one of the biggest factors in making new friends - it highlighted why so many people make lifelong friend groups in college.

The fact is that now people, across all aspects of society (not just referring to work from home) have much less opportunity for these kinds of serendipitous interactions: we can order tons of stuff online instead of shopping at retail stores, we can order food from a bajillion places instead of going out to eat, we can stay in and watch Netflix instead of going to a movie. And while all of these conveniences, individually, may be very nice, overall they have the effect that we just have a ton fewer in-person interactions, on average, with other people.

In my experience, commuting eats into the time and energy baseline that would be needed for "serendipity". To give a concrete example, I'm not volunteering at the PTO if I am commuting ten hours per week. I'm not having meals and making friends with other parents in my neighborhood.

I think your response highlights the point I was making, and also highlights why you see polarization around this issue.

If you're talking about "volunteering at the PTO", my guess is that you are married with children. Most people who are married with children already have most of their social framework "set", and often times (at least in the US) so much of their free time revolves are child rearing and their childrens' activities such that most of their "neighborhood friends" revolve around the serendipitous encounters they have with other parents - the PTO as you mention, sports games, etc.

But for people at an earlier stage of their life and career, I think you'll find they often have a different outlook. They're often looking for a spouse, they have much more free time without kids so they're looking to meet people, etc.

For me personally, I'm also at a stage where my social connections are pretty set. But I got so many of my early workplace connections when I joined a job that had a "bootcamp" 2 month training program for new grads. I've gotten nearly every subsequent job over a couple decades from that first job, not to mention many close friends. I know I wouldn't have had those close connections if I had been solely WFH in my first job out of college.

Replace PTO with dating and other volunteering activities and my point stands, I think.

Different people are different. You're seem to be highly socially functional. There are a lot of people who aren't, and have no friends, and whose only exposure to social interactions are at the office. These people are at much higher risk of bad outcomes like depression, suicide, etc., than someone like you. Someone like Milton from Office Space.

Now, of course, there could be people who work at an office, say, as a security guard in an industrial facility where they never see anyone, have friends who they can't see and are depressed about it, and if they can WFH watching surveillance feeds, it makes them better off. Don't doubt that this can exist, but my gut feel is that Category 1 is bigger than Category 2.

<<There are a lot of people who aren't, and have no friends, and whose only exposure to social interactions are at the office. These people are at much higher risk of bad outcomes like depression, suicide, etc.,

I wrote several versions of this response including one that touched on how quickly "we are in this together" morphed back into the usual "got mine, fuck you" during start of Covid. I hesitated several times. Ran it internally against HN rules about taking stuff at face value, but I think at the end of the whole process only one real question came back to me.

Is it really my responsibility to live somebody else's life?

To me answer came back quickly. It is not.

It’s not your responsibility to live someone else’s life but it is the responsibility of senior decision makers to set policies that broadly benefit the populace even if they hurt some people. Is it your responsibility to heal the sick? No, but government can tax you to do so, and now maybe you can’t get the leather seats in your Audi.

<<No, but government can tax you to do so, and now maybe you can’t get the leather seats in your Audi.

You want to avoid sniping. It is typically frowned upon.

That said, believe it or not, we are not that far apart on that front. The issue I have with the argument presented is that senior decision makers do not set policies that broadly benefit the populace ( as evidenced by reality itself ).

Apart from that, why are senior decision makers even a consideration here? The recession in the article is that of the mind. It is spiritual in nature ( and that is assuming we are assuming posited argument ).

If you are going to throw suicides at me again, I will ask you a simple question.

Why are suicides are inherently a bad thing? People want to die. Why do you feel you have an obligation to stop them?

Forgive me, but you sound like someone who has never needed help from another person, or the help you received you felt you deserved.

I think you should remember that all of our lives affect each other. We have a social responsibility to pursue a society where those effects lead to happy, healthy people.

If you think you’d rather live in a survival of the fittest jungle there are plenty of countries you can move to. In the west, we consider the progress away from such things as one of humanity’s greatest accomplishments.

<<Forgive me, but you sound like someone who has never needed help from another person, or the help you received you felt you deserved.

That is not accurate. Just the other week I had to pay people do complete a task for me. The task in question I could not do on my own simply due to its nature and my lack of skill in that domain. I absolutely needed help. I fully accept I live in a society and there will be times, where my skills will simply not be enough to face every situation thrown at me.

<<We have a social responsibility to pursue a society where those effects lead to happy, healthy people.

Do we? Why is that thrown as an axiom of some sort? I am looking at the history of human race and the history of various societies is at odds with that statement.

<<If you think you’d rather live in a survival of the fittest jungle there are plenty of countries you can move to.

I am relatively certain I live in one of those countries now ( US ). I think most would argue it is considered part of 'the west'.

<<In the west, we consider the progress away from such things as one of humanity’s greatest accomplishments.

Who is we in this statement? There are entire groups in US devoted to the exact opposite position.

Then in the spirit of democratic values, I oppose the world you think we should (or do) live in. I hope a sufficient number of others will as well. I think we can and should aspire for more.

I live in nyc. My neighbors don't speak english and they're not interested in socializing with me at all. We have nothing in common culturally or otherwise, besides living in the same building.

I think you all can bond over living in the same building. A telegram group or something can help a lot, someone will need something and ask, someone will watch for porch pirates, someone will notice a stranger in the halls…

I think that's what he's talking about. How is that going to work if he can't speak their language and they can't speak English?

Translation tools are solid and stuff like Duolingo are pretty good for basics, and people usually appreciate others making an effort with their language. Not easy for sure, but if you're determined to improve your relationship with your neighbours it might be good to consider (I find it has an outsized impact in terms of being well socialized, a warmer atmosphere sometimes really makes a difference)

It's easy to poke holes in peoples reasons why they can't do xyz, I'm still struggling and eating shit with this as an expat after some years. It's hard, but if that's your challenge and you can convince yourself it's an option, I think it's probably an option.

A clear use case for AI, if I have ever seen one (and something you can download an app for pretty easily).

Sounds nice. Though not as nice as collaborating with co-workers.

How do you deal with meetings? work info that's not public? etc..?

What makes collaborating with coworkers nicer than spending time with friends?

People have friends? Every person I’ve been friends with outside work has either moved away or stopped hanging out with me once I got a career and a family.

The only people who really “give me a chance” because I’m a little weird are people I work with because I’m useful I guess? So there’s time for me to grow on them.

My social life has definitely suffered since WFH. In fact the only people I see regularly are people I used to work with by inviting them to lunch.

I'm sorry to hear that. This is a real challenge. Among my circles, work and otherwise, there's strong non work connections, like different circles that happen to overlap im the company. Immigrant, religious, volunteer based, etc. But it makes sense that those in a circle might miss that others are not in a circle.

During the lockdowns our house was quite popular as like an underground Libertarian hangout spot for nerdy board game players and people who liked low stakes poker. I made friends with a former Magic the Gathering world champ because of that. I guess I do have friends they’re just the kind of people who don’t do much unless invited to something.

I guess that’s how MOST people are. A lot of people just want their socializing handed to them.

I agree, and I think it's not a generally good state, but if you're the one who organizes hangouts you're making a large positive impact

Well then we got sick and cockroaches invaded, and the house got dirtier and we got sicker until it all spiraled out of control. One or two people messaged us after that but nobody else has the ability to host regularly.

Hiring a housekeeper and an exterminator were in retrospect the best decisions we’ve made in the past year. It’s super important for both mental and physical health that you keep your house clean and free of pests folks!

>I guess that’s how MOST people are. A lot of people just want their socializing handed to them.

This was the main reason for people to go to church. The congregation gets a built-in social club, and the leaders get rich and the ability to control people's lives in various ways. Now that more and more people abandon religion, people are having to find other ways to socialize.

Mind if I ask what location this is where your neighbors are so "neighborly"?

Literally anywhere if you're a friendly person?

I go work at a coffee shop and coworking spaces and have made more friends then going into an office and seeing the same 10 people everyday.

How could you extrapolate that seeing the same office people everyday all day is good for.yiur social life.

When you work at coworking spaces, do you prefer a private desk or flex desk / lounge out in the open?

Either way. I find I meet people at the events the co-working spaces throw or in the break rooms or kitchen.

> How could you extrapolate that seeing the same office people everyday all day is good for.yiur social life.

Because it's easier to interact with someone when we are dealing with the same project / sharing the experience of being an employee for the same company?

If you're not a company man and have interests outside of work... what you're proposing sounds like an absolute nightmare.

It's not about work. In the same way that high school friends are not about the high school... I feel like I am running in circles here.

It's about having a shared context to tap into, it makes things easier, is that what you're saying?

Yep. It's about the constant and intentionless interactions. Not something you can easily replicate outside, even in coworking spaces. Don't get me wrong - it is possible -, but if I am struggling to make the adjustments required (and I am fairly social person), I can only imagine how hard it can be for less well connected people. Make no mistake, this is only going to aggravate our "loneliness epidemic".

This. It seems people forgot how to socialize or that they have friends outside work. I just hope don't comeback to the office for a long time.

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