Ask HN: Fedora Kinoite – What does this do?
kinoite.fedoraproject.org
kinoite.fedoraproject.org
Also, is silverblue supposed to be fedora + flatpak and flatseal?
Is this supposed to be a Nix-like thing?
> Also, is silverblue supposed to be fedora + flatpak and flatseal?
Basically. There's a couple other ideas packed in there, but the basic idea is Fedora + Flatpak for all user applications. Putting it lightly, their vision for the future of software distribution is... highly optimistic.
> Is this supposed to be a Nix-like thing?
Kinda? Nix and Flatpak take hugely different approaches to solving largely the same problems. Both projects look similar on the surface, but Flatpak is more about creating comprehensive containerized & sandboxed runtimes for individual programs, whereas Nix focuses on creating a content-addressable dependency store that can be dynamically linked to create complex ephemeral runtimes. Nix runtimes are laser-focused on correctness and their 'composable' nature. Flatpak runtimes are more of a 'kitchen-sink' container, lugging along a lot superfluous dependencies.
Why the CoreOS branding, mentioning of containers, and mentioning of flatpak?
I get what the difference is between flatpak and nix, but it's the only place my brain could go where a stupid name + some seemingly too-leet-for-me shit was going on, the only thing that came to mind was the new deterministic OS thing everyone's on.
I can't grasp how something with such a terrible name plus an ambiguous purpose got any kind of attention, and I hope it got no funding for this. It seems to serve zero articulable purpose. Who is the ideal user here? Everyone wishing to use those technologies is more than capable and likely prefers to install KDE on their already working system.
Again, I'm not opposed to most of the underlying technology (particularly Bubblewrap and rpm-ostree), but it does feel like they're baking a cake before they've even mixed the ingredients properly.
The Silverblue, IoT and CoreOS logo are in the section "Related Projects". This is probably because all of them (not sure about IoT), including Kinoite, use rpm-ostree.
Both Silverblue and Kinoite are named after crystals.
Kinoite is like Silverblue with KDE instead of Gnome. They have separate deployment channels due to the nature of underlying technology.
Neither Silverblue nor Kinoite is considered primary variant by Fedora Project yet, because they're still rough around the edges. But I hope they will be in the future due to their advantages, which are mentioned on the first page of their respective docs [1][2] and which I have experienced myself.
The only thing I don't like is using Toolbox to manage CLI programs and the fact that `rpm-ostree install` always includes `Recommends`. I think Flatpak should handle CLI apps as well as GUI.
[1] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/#intr...
[2] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-kinoite/#introdu...
This could have been a great opportunity for Fedora to raise the bar and lead the industry by redesigning RPM to integrate with Bubblewrap and provide unprecedented thin-sandboxing. That's a great sell to enterprise users! The execution feels a bit botched though, and there's a lot of work left on the table before it can compete with other modern distros. It's creative, but not creative enough IMO.
Snap and Flatpak where not only meant to enable sandboxing, but also to eliminate huge distribution repositories of packages all modifying root directory contents and requiring redundant packaging work.
I agree that neither Flatpak nor Snap are there yet, but we're all still in the transition stage.
Well... I'd argue both of them failed. Snap is well-made, but mired in Canonical politics to the point that it's unusable. Flatpak has good intentions, but is generally poorly maintained and driven by ideologues rather than project managers and top-down leadership. That's without mentioning the technical implementations of either project, both of which fail to eliminate redundancy in their runtimes and feel completely foreign to the native system.
Nix shouldn't have to come up so frequently in these discussions, but it's a much better package manager than Flatpak or Snap (isolation technologies aside). If Flatpak also worked with software maintainers instead of embracing mutual distrust, it could be faster and lighter on the system. Instead of tracking our dependencies properly, we've resigned ourselves to just targeting "Another Competing Standard" and hoping it won't also become irrelevant in 5 years when rpm-ostree-2 drops. It doesn't strike me as a resilient or reliable technology in the long-term, especially on it's own.
Also I don't think tracking dependencies is the root problem, rather different applications requiring different dependency versions, which leads to even more redundancy on top of the aforementioned one. And if you avoid providing different lib versions, you end up with silly application version freezes until next distribution version is released along with updated repos.
Rpm/deb/etc. repositories simply don't scale. You either end up with a small well-maintained repo, or a huge one with many abandoned or version-frozen packages. Not to mention you'd have to write sandboxing rules for each distro version separately, which is why most distros do not provide complete sandboxing at all. Perhaps there are some distributions inbetween, but not in my experience.
I do understand current Flatpak's and Snap's technical limitations. I just think they will be solved, sooner or later. I'd be happy to use Guix or Nix instead of Toolbox, but currently their requirements conflict with how rpm-ostree treats system's root directory.
As far as I understand they think the current distro/software model is not sustainable and this is how they are trying to solve it.
Fedora CoreOS is like regular Fedora, except it uses atomic rpm-ostree as the package manager and many directories are mounted read-only.