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Comment by mikepurvis | Hacker News Reader

I live in a downtown century home neighborhood with the elementary school right around the corner (Waterloo region, Canada), and most kids walk, but there are a handful whose parents drop them off on nearby side streets or whatever. Possibly on the way to work or something? Obviously there may be individual considerations, but overall it just seems nuts that anyone would consider that option given how small the catchment is.

Anyway, the school has a tiny parking lot (like 20 slots) just for staff use, but they’re constantly facing calls to expand it, add “pull-in” spots, and so on. I’m glad they’ve been able to resist these as I could well imagine many parents teetering on the edge of comfort level with walking, and potentially switching if it was only slightly more convenient to drive or slightly more scary to walk.

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I wonder if there's some sort of game-theory esque problem with cars.

As in, the more people drive to a destination, the less pleasant and convenient it is to walk the same route, and the more attractive driving becomes.

I think, also, the more driving you do in general, the more it feels like the default.

It's the school drop-off paradox: https://blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/120/files/2022/01/Pic...

Yes, absolutely both of those are factors. Walkability is a classic tragedy of the commons.

Which is why it is important and justifiable to occasionally decide collectively to do things that may be perceived as “anti-car”, such as removing (or refusing to build) new car-serving infrastructure such as parking spaces.

This is definitely the case - I used to work next to a bakery and a shopping market with a deli - great lunch options - but that option was rarely exercised because they were built in the classic American "island in the middle of a sea of parking spaces" style that meant the walk was incredibly unpleasant. Folks who lived with half a mile of the grocery store would drive over just to avoid spending five minutes walking (and dodging cars in) the parking lot.

Car oriented infrastructure makes cities less habitable.

I'd drive to my grocery store a 1/4 mile away because I don't want to carry a weeks worth of groceries home

I have a friend whose family of five is car free and he does big grocery runs with a hiking pack or even bike trailer.

But certainly point taken— that type of thing is well outside the norm. Most carfree urban dwellers I think handle this by just breaking up the shopping into more, smaller trips. Going every two days instead of every seven, and paying a slight premium for smaller packs of stuff like TP vs stockpiling 48 rolls at once.

And honestly, some of it is a mindset shift more than anything else. Like a lot of people who do these big whole-week mega shops still seem to be "popping out" to the store (in the car, of course) every other day anyway for some single item they forgot, emergency snacks, whatever. So maybe if you're there anyway, do the work and extend the meal plan another day or two, bring a backpack’s worth of stuff home, and avoid or defer the mega shop that justifies owning a car in the first place.

I would agree that it is manageable to make shopping work without a car, but I'd rather not spend more time going to and from the store, and I'd rather drive a little further to cheaper stores for bulk goods. Also, I don't think the mega shopping is what justifies owning a car, it's more a product that I already have a car because I need to go to work. The car is a sunk cost in most of America.

I feel like both justify the other in some ways: I need a car to do big shopping trips <-> I need to do big shopping trips because I have a car

Or, as you say, having a car is just a given most places in America, so there’s not really a question of it being any other way.

As someone who has lived car free I both agree and disagree with your point. What we tend to do for shopping is occasionally cab/instacart big heavy bulk stuff (like dried beans, canned goods, spices, the 3lbs cut of beef) from Costco/equivalent and then do random small shops through the week to pickup vegetables, fruit and other perishables - it works out quite well and it's nice to be able to plan recipes pretty flexibly.

Again, it's totally manageable to come up with ways to shop without a car. I already have a car though, so it would take more time and effort for me to not use it at this point.

Sort of? Walking to the store, and generally being outside, is healthy and if you're going to the gym already then the occasional walk is an easier way to get some exercise for free.

Sort of? It’s absolutely more time and effort if I include “exercise time” in my now every few days grocery runs. So rather than take 5 minutes each way in a car once a week traveling to the store you’d like me to walk to the closer expensive store several days a week and say it’s only sort of quicker and easier? You have to construct reasons to make it better and even then a walk to the store isn’t the same as a gym workout. I’m much happier walking to the park several times a week with my family than walking to the store with them.

Basically.

America’s high parking requirements are one example for this. The parking lot is usually between a sidewalk (if it hasn’t gotten eaten to expand said parking lot) and the front entrance, reducing a given spot’s walkshed, and both being within a parking lot or crossing its driveways to pass one are not pleasant.

I think it's more than that. The more cars are going the less pleasant it becomes for everyone, also cars themselves. But a large amount of people does what everyone else does and just rationalises/justifies it somehow when challenged.

I see the same with children. When I was young nobody wanted to be dropped off by their parents, everyone wanted to bike. I see it with my kids somewhat (they are still a bit young to bike to school alone here) and some colleagues kids (who are older) and it is an argument to bike to school. Interestingly this seems to be very school dependent some schools have almost all kids biking while others have none. It is almost like a phase transition.

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