Hacker News Reader

Comment by lapcat | Hacker News Reader

I love how "Desktop-class apps" means extremely basic features available decades ago on desktop: "consistent undo and redo, a redesigned inline find-and-replace experience, a new document menu, customizable toolbars, and the ability to change file extensions, view folder size".

View on HN

It seems reasonable for "desktop-class" to refer to the basic features that have typically distinguished desktop personal computers from alternatives like smartphones and tablets. What else would you expect "desktop-class" to mean?

I think OP is saying it's strange that many "desktop" applications today lack these basic desktop features.

Powerful features that are more than a glorified ^Z. Reminding actions to finger shortcuts, quick access through a command palette, etc.

It'd be like me calling McDonald's restaurant-class because they could suddenly give you a plate. Sure, it's a component, but the porcelain isn't why I go to a restaurant, it's to have a qualified cook doing things with his expertise.

> What else would you expect "desktop-class" to mean?

For example, PineTab runs full desktop GNU/Linux.

well the Surface Pro runs full Windows

It has always been artificial market segmentation. Their message is clear: don't buy apple if you want a laptop with a touchscreen. Apple will only sell you oversized phones and regular laptops.

And don't buy a Windows laptop if you want a laptop without a touchscreen because the UI will be designed for touch even if you only use a mouse. Although macOS is unfortunately trending in this direction also.

Complain to the developers? Windows will tell applications if they're in laptop or tablet mode, if you don't like tablet mode then don't use it.

> don't buy apple if you want a laptop with a touchscreen

Keep buying Apple laptops, got it. I know that a large number of people keep asking for laptop with touchscreen, but this is one design decision where I whole heartedly with Apple. Touchscreen on laptops make no sense. The use case for a touchscreen is significantly different from a laptop that it makes sense to have two classes of devices.

Then again, I don't really get the large number of iPads sold either. It seems like an extremely niche devices which would only find a use case in certain types of industry.

Yeah I've never used a laptop and wished I could touch the screen to do something. I don't want to lift my hands off my desk to move something around on the screen. I might not be a good representation though because I don't even like moving my hand off the keyboard to use the mouse

Touchscreens on a laptop are kinda silly, especially if it isn't convertible. I will say though, I use touchscreen gestures to navigate my desktops pretty frequently. Blindly reaching for a three-finger swipe feels a lot more natural than pausing to look down at my Touch Bar and figure out what the hell I want to press...

I use the magic trackpad, that feels more natural that touching the screen. 95% of the time my laptop is docker to a USB-C monitor, so having a touchscreen would be a little weird. For professional use, I'd guess that most people have a larger monitor hooked up anyway. For a touchscreen to make sense, my monitor would need to be touch as well.

The issue with the Touch Bar is the same, that's not a professional feature, or even particular useful. Apple knows this, because you can't buy a magic keyboard with the Touch Bar. If it was useful, the Touch Bar would also appear on the those and it doesn't. I'd love to know how many MacBook Pros are sold with and without the Touch Bar.

Trackpad gestures are great too, I use my Magic Trackpad 2 on my Linux desktop where I don't have any touchscreens. Still though, I think the display as a multitouch surface shouldn't be overlooked. It's pretty much perfect for gesturing.

The best part is that those trackpad gestures translate almost 1:1 from macOS to iPadOS. And you can use magic trackpad with iPad too (although it makes more sense for me personally to use the trackpad built into the iPad magic keyboard case). I havent really used iPad shortcuts before all that much, but once i accidentally triggered a few of them after using it with a trackpad due to the muscle memory from macOS, it all clicked perfectly.

I've had a Macbook with a touchscreen

I installed OS X on my old Asus Zenbook and the touchscreen still functioned... but yeah not once did I ever think "wow I want to apply my fingers to my laptop screen instead of using the large precise touch surface within easier reach" besides for novelty

I'm always surprised at the pushback from people when the topic of touchscreen laptops comes up. I love mine, even if I don't use it a ton. It's a collection of delightful little things: a modal dialog box that I just reach up and tap Okay. Resting four fingers on the back of the display and using a thumb to scroll a web page. Any situation (like on an airplane) where space is limited, reaching for the screen can be better than using a touchpad. I don't use it instead of mouse/touchpad, but I use it as an additional input, and again, it's delightful.

Apple could let customers launch iPad apps on their Macs and use a touchscreen. But they don't, because they'd rather sell you two devices. It's silly, artificial market segmentation.

You could actually get a full desktop experience from a tablet back in 2003, with products like the NEC Versa Litepad [1] running Windows XP. With a fully-fledged x86 processor, you could run anything a desktop could run.

It was pretty neat, but I can tell you from experience that coding using handwriting recognition isn't a great experience :)

[1] https://www.cnet.com/reviews/nec-versa-litepad-tablet-pc-vlp...

All of the Tablet PC's running XP Tablet Edition were terrible. I will die on that hill. I tried probably about 10 different versions and the company I worked for was a reseller for them so I got to play with a lot of them. It was just Windows XP with pen input slapped on and it *sucked*.

Maybe the "pencil hover experience" will finally allow desktop-style "tool tips". So you can know what a button does before tapping.

True, but only for users of the v2 Apple Pencil with the new iPad Pro. For folks with v1, or with an iPad/Pro that doesn't support hover (or who just use our fingers), discoverability will continue to be a challenge...

I really struggle to find a use case for the iPad over my Macbook Pro from 2014.

- It sits on my lap with the screen sitting upright without the need for a case to sit it upright - I prefer using a keyboard over a touch screen for desktop like applications and browsing - The trackpad being on my lap or directly in front of me is more ergonomically friendly than having to reach forward to touch the screen

If I was to need to buy another laptop, it would be another Macbook over an iPad.

Not sure the desktop has moved beyond that though.

So seems about right.

Well, they can't push it too far because then it would become something too close to an actual laptop/tablet hybrid.

I'd argue that is exactly what they are doing. Their promotional material and many users are already using iPads as desktops... and they seem to be catering to them.

Could be, but at what point will they stop, i.e. how long before the iPad becomes the Macbook Air? In any case: if they don't stop then I'd think one of those would have to go, makes little sense keeping 2 product lines which are like almost the same?

I suspect that will happen eventually.

My M2 air is as thick as my iPad ...

Having said that it is also MUCH heavier (relative to what I'd like an iPad to be) and has a noticeably bigger screen.

Not sure how fast those gaps get closed.

When the iPad Pro is as expensive or more than the Air, and they feel they have the software down pat.

iPad Pro already costs more than Air in many configurations.

> if they don't stop then I'd think one of those would have to go, makes little sense keeping 2 product lines which are like almost the same?

I feel like this is exactly what they want. My only question is how much i'll be able to modify my laptop long term. Ie i run Nixpkgs (ie the package system from NixOS) on my laptop. The day i can't modify my Mac OS to my liking is the day i stop buying their laptops.

I do think there's a market for people who want laptops that have the lockdown of phones. Where less things can go wrong because you can't change a lot.

> The day i can't modify my Mac OS to my liking is the day i stop buying their laptops.

That was my mentality too. For me, the cutoff came when Catalina dropped (and I couldn't run 32-bit libraries, even after modding MacOS). Nix was the last thing keeping my sanity together when I last used MacOS. When they pull the plug on that, it's going to be a sad day...

> I do think there's a market for people who want laptops that have the lockdown of phones. Where less things can go wrong because you can't change a lot.

I agree. That's a software problem though, not a hardware problem. Much like the situation on iPhone, Apple could easily offer a "pro mode" or "developer mode" that offers extended functionality while disabling certain high-security features.

A long time.

If MacBook Air is a browser machine, then it's already happened. If it's a creative work machine, then well, it's close, but you still probably have a some kind of PC nearby.

If it's a developer machine, then the best iPad can do is being a ssh terminal or VSCode browser. A superb terminal, I use it every day to work because I don't have personal laptop.

The iPad doesn't become the Macbook Air until it can run XCode and you can develop, compile, and test iPad apps on the iPad itself.

Can you drag the cursor with your finger to a specific character in-text yet, without selecting text? 2018 iPad can't.

Long tap space bar and it should become something like a trackpad for the cursor.

God damn thank you. This interaction used to be triggered by deep pressing on the keyboard and it drove me insane when they got rid of it, I couldn't find any settings to turn it back on but this works!

It’s also the same on iphones.

My 2017 iPad Pro can do that. I can tap and drag on the cursor to move it. I can also long-tap and drag on the spacebar to move the cursor like a touchpad. I can also drag with 2 fingers anywhere on the keyboard to move the cursor like a touchpad. The first 2 options also work on my iPhone.

> consistent undo and redo

Safari history has been broken for something like 4-5 years. About 1% of time back button will take you one step too far (i.e. will show your home page instead of google serp)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com