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> And the Indian devs work their ass off out of fear of getting PIP’d and with their work authorization, they lose their job means they have to leave the country.

This matches what I saw at Nike. Though it was a bit less extreme, it was the same dynamic. Indian-born workers got paid half what the American-born workers did for the same SWE jobs. And Indian workers couldn’t complain or push back against unrealistic expectations because getting fired meant getting deported. It’s a captive, exploitable labor force. It’s really messed up.

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Same for us Europoors.

Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level.

But they know there's so few options in Europe so they set the salaries according to "local market conditions".

>Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET),

In which country are you? We Europoors usually have labor laws to protect us from having to work so late. Where I live we have core working hours in our contract, 10:00 to 16:00, any work requests after that are voluntary for the employees. Is that not something you can use to push back on this?

Labour laws do not apply if you're freelancing, which you have to do most of the time for US companies.

Yeah, but good luck enforcing that with no trade union, nevermind if you're aiming for a promotion, etc.

Like real worker power comes from having good economic conditions and strong trade unions - the American engineers have far more bargaining power, because they can easily get competing $150k-250k offers which are unimaginable in Europe.

Well, I guess I'd be fired quickly because between 7 and 8 PM CET I put my kids to bed, usually fall asleep too.

> Same for us Europoors.

Mate, it isn't quite nearly the same for Europeans.

It is. We're getting paid peanuts compared to our American counterparts and we do the same work. What's worse is we pay higher taxes. The only way this changes is by European tech workers standing together and demanding matched salaries.

In terms of compensation maybe (I'd say Indians in USA generally make more than EU devs), but you don't fear being fired and deported.

That said, Russian and Chinese developers had the same happening in companies in the UK.

But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare.

> But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare.

Irrelevant. Just because you work for a US company that does not mean your kids should go to US colleges.

The point is that Indian workers are held hostage due to threat of deportation / returning home. European remote workers still live at home and have much more job mobility.

European workers face the same threat in the USA...

When we're in the US, sure; but the implication of your previous comment was that this was remote work.

Well it's fair that your payment is adapted to the cost of living in your country/area.

No it isn't. You're doing the same work. It is fair to get paid the same for the same work.

Do people pay plumbers the same in SF as they do in Charlotte?

As an employee I want to be paid the highest that anyone else is paid for the same work. More so if the value generated is the same regardless of location. Yet I can understand employers wanting to help maintain sustainable communities, even where cost of living is high.

Governments too want some control over their currencies and its value.

I don't desperately need to have understanding for governments or corporations. They can all take care of themselves without my help.

My point is it's a collective concern too. Because without coordinating all prices globally there will be variance in costs of living. Which could price out lower valued jobs from certain areas entirely.

I live in Silicon Valley and had to pay a plumber 150USD just to visit and fix a small problem. Do you pay a plumber in your area 150USD (in local currency) for 30min of work? If not, why not?

Yes in Denmark it can be even higher than this. So Danes are being compensated (it's actually much less than SV programmers: I'm getting a take home of 81k a year for senior) but are paying more for plumbers.

This is one hundred percent a problem of exploitation and cultural expectations and needs to change.

It's really fascinating how it is so much easier to understand the problems we face but so much harder to wrap our minds around the problems that other people face.

Yes but you do not face deportation right? Infact if you were to move to the us on a H1B yould get your gc in a couple of years. GCs (for Indian born) are like a 25 year wait! Doesn't matter your citizenship. Govt perpetuated racism my friend!

That's ridiculous - that's 11am for them, well within their work day, but well outside yours.

I'm lucky that we have a "We'll dial into meetings slightly earlier, if you can dial in slightly later" entente and so it's rare for meetings with west coast to go past 18:00 GMT.

... Am I the only one looking at American companies offering me 3-digits salaries and going "holy shit, that's a really good deal"?

In my case, the company is extremely accommodating and doesn't schedule reunions at hours that are inconvenient for me, but even if they did, I'd still consider it worth it for the compensation they give out.

I dunno. Maybe I could get an even better deal if I pushed hard or if I unionized or whatever, but right now I just look at the fact that I'm getting 5x what a middle-school teacher gets while doing way less work, and I just... don't feel the anger?

(maybe other american companies pay a lot less, though)

3 digits? So up to $999/year? That sounds extremely low. In the US salaries are done per year, so a 6-figure salary is >=$100,000/year.

Do you mean as an hourly wage? That would be $200,000+/year and a 6-figure salary.

Hourly would be $2,000,000+/year at that rate

I imagine they mean three digits above the first set of zeroes.

Right, I meant 6 digits.

I think I meant "3 digits before the K".

Same for us in Bay Area with 7 AM calls to talk to our euro brethren. It is not all rosy.

And with the on call shift (when on call, not every week) going till 6:30 pM, sometimes it is 12 hour work days by design.

on the other hand, they don't bug us much during the day with micro management so it is not all bad.

Hehe. 12 hours!

In India it’s routine (in fact standard) for US companies to have the Indian on-call person for 24x7 on-call. Rarely companies have follow the sun policy. Very few! Definitely not Ubers and Amazons.

And Indian managers are the enforcers of this - it’s probably one of the only significant USP these managers have “I’ll get it done by same engineers at the lower Indian rates“.

US HR and leadership wash their hands off the problem - “oh, we give you full ownership, you should decide and own this” :)

> Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level.

Joining late meetings and being paid typical local rates is hardly the same as being paid half the local rates and facing deportation.

The former sucks, but the latter is unconscionable.

If you were to pick where would you choose to live? It’s very much a trade off, salaries are higher in the US, but the quality of life is piss poor compared to anywhere in Europe. Healthcare is terrible and expensive, Education is lousy and expensive, housing is expensive and city life, outside of a couple of cities, is mediocre (car centric, no culture, segregated). Oh and you are at-will employed, which means you are one phone call away from getting fired on the spot.

For context, I’m a European in a US city. I’m not sure for how long I’ll be able to stay here.

Dozens of my Indian friends who work in WITCH companies in overseas locations are actually quite happy with their salaries. They are dying to work in overseas projects.

Guess they are more than happy being a part of captive, exploitable force.

What does WITCH stand for here? Haven't seen that acronym before

The first company that came to mind was Wipro, which led me to this:

W- Wipro I- Infosys T- TCS C- Cognizant H- HCL A- Accenture India.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27571707

Out of that list, working horrible hours at Amazon looks preferable.

You can be happy working at a lower salary, doesn't mean that its not exploitative or that it distorts the labor market. Especially with the knowledge that the company holds your residency in their hand.

I bet they’d be even happier if they were paid the same as American workers, seeing as they’re doing the same job.

If a minimum wage worker happens to enjoy what they do, that doesn’t mean that we should all settle for minimum wage. Your argument is toothless and blatantly anti-worker.

Same with Walmart

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