Be careful what you put in an email
om.wordpress.com
om.wordpress.com
They appear to be respectable businesses, and have mounted a successful propaganda campaign regarding paying them for music, but let's not shed a tear for the major labels. They steal far, far more from musicians than 'piracy' ever has. Even beyond the way they rope musicians into highly unfavorable contracts, they often don't even fulfill the contracts. Every major label has failed to pay up to hundreds of millions owed for radio plays and licensing, from all levels of musicians. All in all, they're about as respectable and deserving as your average street pimp. Good for Grooveshark. Someone needs to shake up that industry.
VC firms do the same thing. So why are they so respected on HN?
So we read up on business news and learn how the VCs think so that one day a few of us will get "signed" and hopefully make it big. We all know it can be a kind of predatory relationship but at the same time entrepreneurs are all about taking that one big risk that pays off in the end. So startups, like bands, try to get VC backing in the hope that they won't become yet another company that was chewed up and spit by the VCs and instead becomes the next Google/Facebook/CoolestCompanyEverCo.
So are they really respected? Kinda. Depends who you are. Much of that perceived respect is akin to research so we can get in bed with them. Kind of like books on how to easily bed women except we read it right from the horse's mouth.
The people who can fill in that blank will be very rich someday.
This guy pretty much just wrote the lawsuit for his opposition.
I prefer not to correspond with the type of person who would take advantage of this by releasing or publishing my emails. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but less often than you might think.
Unfortunately, the flip side might be as bad or worse: If you deleted emails or other potentially-relevant documents at a time when a lawsuit was reasonably foreseeable, then you could be hit with an adverse inference [1]. That is, the judge might conclusively presume (or instruct the jury to conclusively presume) that the missing emails or documents must have been really bad, otherwise you wouldn't have destroyed them.
And if government authorities were involved, then you could be indicted on criminal charges of obstruction of justice. (That ultimately destroyed accounting firm Arthur Andersen LLP [2].)
That's why opposing counsel can get downright orgasmic when their adversary has deleted emails or destroyed documents, and when this can be "spun" as having been motivated by a desire to conceal harmful evidence.
I used to think it made sense to adopt, and then follow, a comprehensive "document retention" [sic] policy, where documents are reviewed every X months for possible destruction. In the real world, though, people get busy, and they don't take the time to do periodic document reviews. Then, suddenly, a lawsuit is imminent, and people realize they still have all these documents that should have been routinely destroyed but never were. So they try to play catch-up with a shredding party. The belatedly-destroyed documents might be utterly harmless, but that might not matter. (A belated shredding party is what got Arthur Andersen indicted.)
RULES OF THUMB: If your organization doesn't already have a document-retention policy, here are two serviceable rules of thumb that might help (YMMV, I'm not your lawyer, etc.):
A) Keep emails and other documents for as long as you think you'll have a business need for them -- and keep in mind that sometimes the law mandates specific retention periods for certain categories of document;
B) If there's a non-trivial possibility of a lawsuit that would be even remotely related to the subject matter of the emails or other documents, then don't destroy them without first checking with your lawyer. As the saying goes, sometimes the cover-up --- whether real, or simply the product of opposing counsel's "spin" --- is worse than the crime.
Mainly for this reason.
Case in point: Eric Scmidt http://gawker.com/5505606/gmail-overlord-always-deletes-his-...
Nope. If discovery has started, you have to retain even if you otherwise would have discarded.
That's in addition to any specific statutory requirements wrt the document's content.
Still, if a law suit is brought against the company, you'd generally stop deleting anything until the lawyers give the ok.
EDIT: Or the email saying "Yes you can carry out the work in the manner you proposed but only if it will be at no extra cost to my client and you take full responsibility for the alteration to the original design"
Has the copyright issue on emails been decided yet (and I missed it)? I thought you retain copyright on your emails and the recipient can't just release or publish them willy-nilly.
Update to clarify that it's the text that looks weird
This is less of a business plan than it is a hedge fund betting on one side of a race condition. The bet is that user growth will outpace successful litigation against the investment.
It would be less ethically problematic if they were doing the piracy themselves instead of croudsourcing it.
:-)
What do you mean? How did you arrive at this conclusion?
Whether they are obligated to "report streaming data" is up to their contract, not ethics.
There is no contract.
Users upload the music the service is streaming to everyone. Most of that music is copyrighted and the company has no license (or any other contract) allowing them to stream it.
They expected to eventually be sued by one or more labels for doing this. They also expected to have enough data by then to use it to negotiate a contract where they actually make money while legally licensing the music.
Did I miss this part? Source, please.
Common sense, Wikipedia, previous lawsuits against the company, this lawsuit in question. Feel free to Google. It's not all unlicensed, but their catalog is built upon user uploads (and from previous court cases, from their own execs uploading music they have no license to), not just a database of music they licensed like a legal music store/service.
The UMG lawsuit alone alleges Grooveshark employees uploaded over 100,000 files they had no license to. There was no contract then, they just expected to have enough listening data to make a profitable licensing deal on that music... which might've worked if it didn't come out in discovery of a year old lawsuit that it was Grooveshark employees and not users that uploaded so much of the music. No DMCA protection for that.
They already said Grooveshark intends to fight this battle before the Court, not in the press, so we are threading on thin assumptions here.
Who could have guessed that basing a business on copyright infringement might get you sued for copyright infringement?
This suggests they were getting the label's data from the label and paying the label.
That seems like a license to me.
They could then use the data gained from (infringing) streaming/uploads as a bargaining chip while negotiating the license.
I read it as, "we license their songs, and then we license the usage data back to them at a higher rate once it reaches some threshold."
You apparently read it as, "we infringe until we have enough usage data, and then we negotiate a contract where they pay us."
The few ambiguous parts are,
1. Whether "we use the label’s songs" means to license or to infringe.
2. Whether "the data we got from them" is licensed or infringement.
3. Whether "what we pay them" means what they had paid in license fees up to that point, or the terms of the negotiated license.
> we are achieving all this growth without paying
> a dime to any of the labels
and > In our case, we use the label’s songs till
> we get a 100 (million) uniques
Combined these statements make it less ambiguous.In their business plan, they take a loss for licensing up front, but eventually net positive by licensing the data back to the labels.
Contrast with, e.g., Spotify, who nets a loss with the labels.
"Let’s keep this quite for as long as we can."
also,
> they take a loss for licensing up front
doesn't seem like the correct interpretation, because they say
"we are achieving all this growth without paying a dime to any of the labels"
If you're getting a good deal with competitive advantage, you often want to keep that quiet -- and it doesn't imply you're doing anything wrong. Now if they statement ended with, "or we could all up in jail" then that would imply they were doing something wrong. This just sounds like they found a sweet deal and wanted to make sure they could milk it with as little cost for as long as possible.
Clearly the lesson here is that you need to spellcheck carefully before sending out your emails.
That segment of email made the email's author sound condescending and made the business itself look shady. I personally don't see any problem with that business model at all but there will be people who read it in a condescending tone.
One last thing, the spelling. How in the world does anyone who wants to be taken seriously get away with that sort of spelling? Especially if you're running a business. Slang and shorthand are for teenage texts, not emails from high level execs. I'm a high level executive myself. I'm the CEO/Founder/President of my $20k/yr business that has its office based in my living room and even I wouldn't let that happen in an email from me or anyone representing the work I do. The way you speak and write reflects on you in more ways than people realize. It can make a Nobel Prize winner look like a hillbilly.
Looked like a kid texting to me.
I think you get it darklajid. When someone writes this way it just reflects poorly on the person. My point was that people don't take you seriously even if you really are a genius that can help them if you write and speak in a manner like we see in this email. It it's a close friend then maybe it's fine but my overall point still stands despite the nit picking.
Dyslexia can make spelling errors such as "quite" instead of "quiet" tricky to spot. I'm not aware of any software that's targets this type of heterograph / homophone errors.
Some software autocorrect is notoriously annoying.
People emailing close friends, where there's no expectation of wider distribution, are often less formal than they would be in other situations.
And why would a Nobel prize winner be any good at English spelling and grammar? I expect Russian chemists to be great at chemistry, and let the editors worry about the stylistic stuff.