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Comment by SinParadise | Hacker News Reader

Because they never lost the appetite for slaves.

That sounds compelling, but what percentage of the prison population currently does unpaid labor? Don't most states have a minimum wage for prisoners?

>https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2022.html

The minimum wages paid to prisoners are not meaningfully different from $0. And if you are forced to work it's still slavery if they pay you some nominal amount.

People who are not in prison have to work to afford their housing, food, clothing, and other necessities.

I am not an advocate for the current state of the prison system. But I don't get why people are fundamentally against "prisoners should work to provide for themselves, just like the rest of us."

Hell, it would probably be great for rehabilitation. You could teach people how to show up for a job and manage money. Make it work like it does on the outside, and you'd have an infinitely more effective prison system.

Because it's forced? I feel like you're missing the "forced" part of forced labor.

No. I understand that very well.

I am also forced into labor. I suppose I technically COULD just not work. But then I'd have no place to live and no food to eat.

That isn't really very much of a choice, is it?

I feel like you're missing the "needs" part that the rest of society has.

You could change jobs, or move to somewhere with more opportunities

I’m not sure if it’s like this everywhere in USA, but usually prisoners need to pay for lots of necessities from their own money, like the rest of us - except they get higher prices, because economy.

Not necessities, luxuries such as cigarettes. Prisons must provide necessities (relatively bare ones, but still)

Luxuries such as shampoo, yeah.

>Not necessities, luxuries such as cigarettes. Prisons must provide necessities (relatively bare ones, but still)

Federal prisons banned cigarettes from commissaries in 2006 and smoking in general in 2014[0].

And many states have restricted tobacco use in their jails and prisons[1].

[0] https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/12/05/smoking-offi...

[1] https://prisonroster.com/blog/can-you-smoke-prison/

> But I don't get why people are fundamentally against "prisoners should work to provide for themselves, just like the rest of us."

If we treat prison as a service to society it makes sense that we should pay for the service through taxes. Prison obviously isn't intended to be a service for the convicted individual so it doesn't make any sense to charge them.

If this cost is considered too high we should consider reducing the number of people we send to prison. If we can offload the cost to prisoners, those least capable of fighting back (they can't even vote!), then the sky's the limit!

> Hell, it would probably be great for rehabilitation. You could teach people how to show up for a job and manage money.

Sure, if and only if they're paid the local minimum wage and services in the prison are reasonably priced (no $25 brief phone calls, etc). Otherwise we're not teaching them to manage anything, we're just exploiting them.

To touch on your last point, yes. Prison jobs should be treated basically the same as a real world job, where practicable.

You interview for a job, you get paid a fair market rate, you get reasonable paid time off and sick time.

On the flip side of that, you also need to pay for your own lodging and food. Also at fair market rate (accounting for prison quality generally being lower means lower rent, I wager).

You could offer nicer accommodations that prisoners can upgrade to, for a higher monthly rent. And maybe the food line has different meal options. If you want to splurge one day to celebrate, you could order a steak or lobster, or something.

> Prison obviously isn't intended to be a service for the convicted individual so it doesn't make any sense to charge them.

People are in prison because of their own antisocial behavior, and you think that others should bear the costs of keeping them there?

I do. I am also OK with providing public defenders, prosecutors, judges, rehab counseling, probation, all on the taxpayer's dime. I believe the benefits to society far outweigh the costs.

Yes? Locking people away IF ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY is only done for the reason of making the rest of society better. Of course we should be paying for that functionality. We shouldn't be imprisoning people to make them suffer, we should be doing it because it's literally the only possible way to keep them from harming society as a whole.

The "punishment" inherent in prison is the loss of your basic human rights, your freedom. Anything above and beyond that should be considered unethical treatment. Prison should be an incredibly boring hotel stay really.

And if you say "but then people will want to go to prison" you should think about how horrible of a world you've built where it's better to give up basic rights than participate in society.

People are in prison because that benefits the people outside of prison. By locking up serial killers, the people outside of prison are safe but the people inside prison are not.

> People who are not in prison have to work to afford their housing, food, clothing, and other necessities.

No, people need money to afford their housing, food, clothing, etc. Most people acquire that money through labor, but they can select between a variety of employers and quit whenever they want.

There are lots of freedoms most people have that people in prison do not. Why should freedom to choose their job be different?

Well the argument that "prisoners should be expected to do the same things non-prisoners do" really breaks down when you acknowledge that their circumstances are fundamentally different from those outside of prison.

And as for why freedom to choose their job should be different, we sort of agreed as a society quite some time ago that slavery is wrong.

Someone - let alone a private corporation - telling you where you are allowed to live, what you are allowed to eat, and what you will do with your labor every day - is not comparable to living as a free man even if you still need to work to pay rent. It is just not remotely comparable. Then you get into US incarceration's history being tangled up with slavery and it looks even worse.

In the model I imagine, the prison is not necessarily involved in dictating what jobs there are. There may be _some_ jobs where you work for "the prison" (janitorial stuff, or a cook).

But there are plenty of other things prisoners could do if reasonable accommodations were made. Making widgets, for example.

Also, taking the "prisoners must work" piece out of the equation doesn't really solve any of those problems.

> Someone - let alone a private corporation - telling you where you are allowed to live, what you are allowed to eat, and what you will do with your labor every day - is not comparable to living as a free man even if you still need to work to pay rent.

At what point do you think being in prison should differ from being free then?

I think it could only work if their charges didn't follow them out into the real world and they made meaningful wages with the company who contracts through the prison willing to go to bat for them when they are released. The reality is, these people go to prison to be "rehabilitated." They provide a cheap labor stream. Then when their time is up, they come back to the real world and either have a difficult time being hired or no one will hire them because of their record, so they end up doing crime because, brother has to eat to live, then they wind back up in prison as a cheap labor source. The wages paid are meaningless, so there is not a real way to save up a nest egg for when they get out and on their feet.

The best thing that recently has happened in this regard is California saying they will consider people who did fire fighting during their jail time will get real consideration to work for Calfire if they apply for openings. Which is awesome since these people already have some basic experience and training.

It is crazy what we allow prisoners do and then they can't get hired for it. My father in law for awhile during his one of his prison sentences worked with EMTs, but yet on release, has no pathway to employ the skills he learned.

Slaves were also fed and housed and clothed.

The prison sentence is the loss of your liberty and the mark on your record. Not being sold as forced labor.

If we don't want to pay for prisons, maybe we shouldn't have so many people imprisoned.

There’s the whole, well, imprisoned aspect, then there’s the profit aspect, where the company literally have captive employees, which changes a whole dynamic of the workplace, these people cannot quit Also, cheap prison labor can undercut the market, so you may feel that modern slavery can lower your own wages. Work rehabilitation programs can work, but prison for profit is bound to invite abuse

“Nearly two-thirds of all prisoners in the US, which imprisons more of its population than any other country in the world, have jobs in state and federal prisons. That figure amounts to roughly 800,000 people”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/15/us-prison-wo...

800000 incarcerated people being paid piss-all wages, taking those potentially well-paying jobs from 800000 free people. Foot, meet bullet.

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