On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects. It’s not a vacation, it’s jail.
>>On the labor issue I don’t see why prison populations shouldn’t get put to work on public works projects.
No one is arguing against that. The problem is that prison populations are being used for profit making - anyone can contract with a prison to use their labour to make whatever thing you want to do or make. So companies use prisoners to make products that they then sell for profit. Which obviously creates perverse incentives for prisons to have a large workforce they can hire out for profit. No one is arguing against using prisoners to clear out public pathways or whatever.
>> It’s not a vacation, it’s jail.
Also, I just want to say I'm not a fan of this argument because people use it to excuse all kinds of things. "People get beaten up in prison? It's not a vacation, it's jail". "Prison rape happens? It's not a vacation, it's jail". And so on and so on. Like, yeah, it's not a vacation, but a basic standard of human dignity should be allowed.
> No one is arguing against that.
There's nothing wrong with arguing against that, and there are plenty of people who argue against that.
Why should conditions be any better than what is legally required? If you have a problem with what the law requires, fine. The law should describe some reasonable standard.
But making jail conditions "better" doesn't happen by magic. It requires effort and it costs money.
Perfect riposte, indeed.
Rehabilitation is secondary to that.
Additionally it is important to call out that humane does not mean nice or pleasant. Prison does not need to be cruel. But it should absolutely not be something that people enjoy, because then you create perverse incentives.
When taking a dump on the US, whether it's the rate of maternal death, incarcerations, prison conditions or school shootings or whatever, it's usually only relevant to compare to a subset of rich and democratic countries.
Of course there are places with more murders and worse prisons. The question is if it's reasonable that the country with one of the highest GDPs per capita and the best universities in the world does.
Your thought process implies that you want even harsher conditions for prisoners that regularly are starved, show up in cells dead from lack of water or beaten and left to die, where rape is used a joke, and recidivism increases because we refuse to hire or integrate people into our society post crime.
How much torture should people endure to satisfy your need for punishment?
There was a very good LT (cop of lieutenant level) (strict, super cop type, but he followed the rules and you knew what you got, which is what you want in prison) transferred to UNICOR. He quit the BOP prior to getting his very very generous retirement package because he could no longer accept how UNICOR treated people (not inmates, people).
The punishment is deprivation of liberty. I regard that as already an extreme punishment, entailing as it does the loss of your job, and like as not the loss of your family. You are also deprived of the means to defend yourself, despite being surrounded by violent people who wish you harm. I don't think anyone should ever be incarcerated, unless there is no choice - i.e. for the protection of society.
I findit remarkable that a country that proclaims itself as the beacon of capitalism, skews the labour market by hiring-out compelled, unpaid labourers. That's not how I was taught that well-regulated markets are supposed to work.