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Comment by gsibble | Hacker News Reader

I worked 200% for over 15 years in Silicon Valley. You know how many raises I got without changing jobs? Zero. You know how many promotions I got? Zero. You know how many bonuses I got? Zero. You know how much more work I got assigned? A TON.

Hard work only begets hard work these days and not further compensation. The old paths to higher compensation and career growth are dead, and employers killed them. There's no reason to go above and beyond anymore unless you want to be overworked to death. You won't get compensated more for it.

Times used to be you'd be recognized for your hard work and get raises, bonuses, and promotions but those days are gone. Now you have to change jobs to get ahead. So why put in any extra effort at a temporary job?

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> You know how many raises I got without changing jobs? Zero. You know how many promotions I got? Zero. You know how many bonuses I got? Zero. You know how much more work I got assigned? A TON.

And this is the problem - even away from SV. It was recently suggested to me that the only way to earn more in my current company is if I ended up managing a team (purpose not defined, reasoning unclear). I'm in a great company with great management by the way - or at least I think I am.

I asked, what if I make a material positive impact on the company or its finances? The initial answer was - everyone else is working hard too.

It didn't take long for me to find the exit, and the moment I did the tune changed. I think some managers/CEOs can also lose sight of the value of hard work especially when it can be linked to some positive gain for the company.

What irks me most about this no-raise mentality is that you make less effective money year over year than your starting salary due to inflation but your value to the company has increased from experience and institutional knowledge.

Damn, I felt that.

> your value to the company has increased from experience and institutional knowledge

It's my understanding that regular raises used to be the standard practice in the private sector of the US employment market for this exact reason.

Every year, you'd have your performance review, and assuming it wasn't bad, you'd get some sort of a raise.

I'm not sure where this nonsensical "no-raise mentality" comes from, when clearly it will hurt retention and lose the employer some of its most valuable employees with their knowledge, skills, and experience.

Multiple companies are paying to increase veteran retention, and I've generally been working for these companies, but the complaints here make it seem like it's the exception rather than the rule.

> Every year, you'd have your performance review, and assuming it wasn't bad, you'd get some sort of a raise.

Even when they do have this, those raises usually max out around 5%. Maybe 10% if you're utterly amazing.

Problem is, you can get 20% just by moving, so unless the company is astonishingly employee friendly, you're always losing out.

I agree completely. Everyone who worked in the big tech hubs knows you typically get the best raises by job-hopping. Still, 5-10% raises are at least trying to prevent that. I cannot fathom a company doing zero, as implied by the "no-raise mentality" comment.

A 2-3% is VERY common. Unacceptable even in the days of 2% inflation.

Seriously. And the dollar has lost 13% of its value with compounded inflation in just over the last year.

And now, since the start of inflation, in the last year, the value of a dollar has eroded 13%. Have you gotten a 13% raise just to maintain your cost of living?

Hahahahahahahahaha

No.

Of course we haven't. Of course we never will. To paraphrase my current CEO: "Cost of living adjustments have never been a part of our pay raises."

And also, of course, as a public company they won't cut into their record profits and growth to take care of their employees. To quote Wall Street: "Grow or Die."

How do they expect to fucking keep talent when we can just jump house and make that much more to companies that have adjusted to inflation?

Intern conversions and new hires. Business people see us as cogs, not skilled craftsmen. Skill, in their eyes, is the domain of interacting with - manipulating - people, because thats the domain they excel in themselves.

And while you keep skilled resources, you replace cogs.

Plus, there’s always those who have drunk the koolaide and, despite being seen and treated like cogs, can’t imagine ever leaving the company; can’t imagine their leaders as anything but benevolent.

> I worked 200% for over 15 years in Silicon Valley. You know how many raises I got without changing jobs? Zero. You know how many promotions I got? Zero. You know how many bonuses I got? Zero. You know how much more work I got assigned? A TON

I’m baffled by this based on my 33 years in tech in Silicon Valley and Seattle. I worked at a bigcorp where my salary doubled in 2 years based on recognition from me busting my ass. I worked at another bigcorp where it doubled again. My promo history has been like clockwork (with the exception of 8 years I spent in startup land, where titles and roles were almost nonexistent), and I’ve never once set my goal on getting a promotion. I just work hard. I have spent a lot of my career going above and beyond, and been pleasantly surprised that it gets noticed and rewarded. Am I just the luckiest gen x tech dork alive? (No, I am not, because I passed up an opportunity to interview at google in the late 90’s because I was happy where I was. But I’m still pretty lucky.)

> Am I just the luckiest gen x tech dork alive?

... yes?

I mean I worked my ass off for years (and got raises every year, so lucky me). But when I asked for a promotion they gave the post to some new comer with less experience. (???) Lesson learned.

In my own working experience and speaking with others, this is the part of "quiet quitting" that is too often missed. This is 100% about the question "does extra professional effort on my part, to the point of sacrifices in my personal life, lead to any benefit or reward?"

In game theory terms, if we have a system that increasingly disincentivizes cooperation and incentivizes defection, it should surprise no one to see less cooperation.

> Times used to be you'd be recognized for your hard work and get raises, bonuses, and promotions but those days are gone. Now you have to change jobs to get ahead. So why put in any extra effort at a temporary job?

I guess it depends on what you're looking for. If you just want to chill, that seems reasonable.

But if you're a climber, it seems reasonable to put in work and ask for extra responsibility that will help you get a better job the next time you switch companies. As long as you put yourself on a timer and switch regularly, I don't see that as being taken advantage of.

I certainly wouldn't fault people for disagreeing with me about this, though.

This translates into "Pad my resume" work.

Yes, I spearheaded a campaign which doubled the visitors to our store (I ran some google ad words).

Yes, I led a team which overhauled our public image leading to double digit growth. (I tweaked some CSS).

Yes, I reported directly to the CEO (we chatted about my project and the company a few times)

Perhaps your approach is wrong. “Put in work and ask for extra responsibility that will help you get a better job the next time” doesn’t mean fluffy resume padding, it means putting in effort at the next level so the bosses see that you deserve that promotion. It means gaining actual skills and experience, not some resume talking points that a tiny bit of scrutiny would reveal as fluff.

I loled, thanks for the laughs. Totally true though, everyone does this.

From my own experience and my SO's, a 2-5 percent per year seems normal.

What seems to happen is your manager's manager gets approval from finance to offer 2-5% raises per report. If your manager thinks that is unfair he/she needs to complain (spending their own political capital on someone other than themselves). Your manager gets told to figure out raises and thinks there is no reason not to just give everyone the max raise. I then get told I'm getting 5% and it feels woefully inadequate because I do the majority of the work. Knowing that my buddy makes much more than me, I start looking for a job.

What was anyone supposed to do here? If my manager could give 20% per employee he/she would (maybe the company really can't afford it). If my manager was told they had a pool of money to distribute that then turns into stacking (also something people are really unhappy about).

The employee with the least amount of power (me) requires someone above me to advocate on my behalf. Because your manager has to pick-and-chose their battles, it always seems to happen when I threaten to quit.

I work 200% for over 20 years outside of Silicon Valley, You know how many raises I got... Lots, you know how many promotions I got, Lots

Maybe it is time to get out of the cesspool that is California

I did. And I got my first two raises in 20 years.

Up until a few years ago IC was a rare thing to effectively advance your income. ICs were seen ad just ants that are useless without a manager.

As for "cesspool that is California" - SV provides the highest income opportunities, even if you include low raise opportunities.

and Highest Cost of living, I would need to increase my income 250% or more to maintain the same living as I do where i am today if I lived in San Fransisco.

From what I see, that would be about 80-140% higher than most non-Senior SV Jobs our there. Meaning my standard of living would drastically decrease even though my income would likely go up by 100%.

Example, I own a 3 bedroom home, on 3/4 acre lot with a 15 year mortgage, my payment is less than $900/mo... I would not even rent a Closet in San Fransisco for that

If the value of living in Bay Area was that low, you'd have a drastic decrease of rental prices. The same is with NYC - rents are considerably higher than pre-pandemic.

Calling California a "cesspool" is at best personal opinion.

Shall I show you videos of homeless encampments, people openly shitting on the streets, or people sleeping in their on bile?

I can assure you that does not happen here.

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