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Comment by kragen | Hacker News Reader

Interestingly, he specifically excludes illegal immigrants who are not US citizens from the pardon, as well as (implicitly) people who used to be lawful permanent residents but no longer are (perhaps because their visa got revoked after being arrested for possessing marijuana), as well as former US citizens (if there are any who have been charged with this "crime") and people who were never residents in the US at all (perhaps they got arrested when they changed flights at a US airport). So this is a step in the right direction, but not nearly far enough. I wonder why he went to the trouble of making all those exclusions.

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> as well as (implicitly) people who used to be lawful permanent residents but no longer are (perhaps because their visa got revoked after being arrested for possessing marijuana)

Oh wow, I hadn't caught that. I thought you were mistaken but went back and looked at it again, I think you are correct. That's even more evil.

"Evil" is far from the correct word here.

I wouldn’t call it evil either. As a general rule, don’t do drugs in foreign countries when it’s illegal. If you must, do them in your home country or where they’re made legal.

Fun fact: in some countries it's illegal for citizens to take illegal drugs even if they're abroad in a place where it's legal. E.g. if a Korean smokes weed during a visit to Amsterdam, they can be prosecuted for it upon return to Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_South_Korea#Kor...

Isn't that pretty common? As a Norwegian, there's AFAIK several things I can't do when abroad even if it is legal in the country I visit. Doing drugs is one of those things, I believe.

It's evil. But it's an evil that exists because of optics made necessary by the current political climate. So the blame for that needs to go to the people that make such optics necessary, if you catch my drift.

Uh huh. "Now look what you made me do", the eternal cry of the oppressive government or abusive family member.

A small improvement is better than no improvement, which is what we would've gotten if Biden didn't win. Those are the facts.

The implication to me is that you need to write something down when you deport someone, and this is one of the things that get written down. Sure seems like a strange exception to me, but I'd be curious to hear from someone involved in writing it why exactly it was the practically or politically preferred choice.

Non citizens can’t vote so they aren’t his constituents.

It's obvious. They want to make sure those people are ineligible (or a least seriously impeded) for a visa, green card, or citizenship. Very few offenses can absolutely torpedo immigration to the US as much as drug possession/offenses.

The US is a relatively 'free' country in many areas but they have a shockingly dystopian immigration and DHS, with border security that many travelers characterize as one of the most brutal in the world. Even as a US citizen with clean record I am subject to invasive (cavity) searches, cuffing/throwing in a cell, questioning, threats that I'll not be allowed in the country etc when I deal with CBP/DHS. If you have a marijuana offense as an immigrant you are utterly fucked, and those in power would like to keep it that way.

Lacking your perspective, that thought hadn't even occurred to me.

IANAL but AFAIK a US Citizen cannot be denied entry to the US under any circumstances. They can detain you, search you, seize property, and charge you with any relevant crimes... but they can't simply deny entry.

That is what the law says, but government officials, including Border Patrol officers, sometimes do break the law.

Can you point to any cases of US citizens being denied entry?

The closest I'm aware of is having US citizens overseas be put on the no-fly list, which in practice amounts to the same thing if they can't get to Canada/Mexico either. But hey, they won't be denied entry if they swim across!

Not OP, and I can't answer yes to that, but they like to waive their proverbial dicks around as though they can. You used to be able to drive from Canada back into the US by showing just your US driver's license and birth certificate. About six months before that option went away, I drove across the border with exactly those documents. I hand them over, dude spends a few minutes huffing and puffing, kinda rolling his eyes. Asks me, "Is this all you have?".

Few more minutes pass and he goes, "You know, you're lucky I let you through with this stuff now. In a few months I won't be able to and your butt would be hanging out in Canada tonight. Have a nice day."

I suspect that would be framed as a delay to adequately verify that you are, in fact a US citizen.

Being detained at the border is not legally denial of entry, but it effectively is. Or you can enter, but by doing so you'll forfeit any property you had with you. There are all sorts of loopholes like that, and CBP will happily exploit every one of them.

They can't but they can and will lie to you and tell you they will deny entry. They also can and will threaten to revoke your passport despite no legal basis to do so. They have made both statements to me. If you read above I said they would make "threats" to do so (of the sort a common citizen would probably believe), not that it would actually happen.

Really? Since when?

I'm not a US citizen, and I've been to the US a few times. The security measures are about the same level as Japan. The "worst" thing that happened to me lately on an airport was an officer talked to me in a friendly tone but took my passport for inspection and returned it to me about 15 minutes later.

The only thing that can remotely be described as "brutal" is when I entered the US via land (from Canada) the first time around 2008 if I remember correctly. They searched out stuff thoroughly and we had to wait about an hour or so. But they were very polite and professional about it. No "threats" or intimidation of any kind.

Not a US citizen but had zero problems flying to US last couple of years. Can't even remember the questions at the passport control point... But there was even a humorous, friendly officer there one time. No bag searches. Sometimes the queues have been long tho... Especially arriving in early morn.

I normally get my bags searched at the public "nothing to declare" area entering Japan and Thailand tho at the customs check point, and sometimes leaving.

No questions or searches ever in Malaysia.

No questions or searches ever entering Hong Kong. If you're e-gate enrolled it's not even an officer at the passport checkpoint, you just scan it and go through a double sided gate. If you have a HKID you don't even need to use your passport for entry, you can scan the ID for entry from international which I think is cool.

No questions or searches ever at Turkey.

Flying into Europe they normally have more questions at passport but no searches.

I'm always honest in my ESTA applications tho, maybe that makes difference.

I have never once made it through US customs in under 3 hours (and always with full search, interrogation, and not being cleared until an HSI detective appears). That's not counting the line, I'm talking the search/interrogation/detention phase. I am a US citizen with good passport, clean criminal record, valid and legal reasons for travel, and full compliance with US border related laws.

Sounds like a terrible experience.

That's fascinating. I really want to "Google stalk" you now to figure out what this could be about.

I have no idea but my hunch is maybe you're connected to someone... Social or family... Who is somehow important to them...but you don't know.

If the standard is that People don’t disappear for days and/or completely , then yes US systems is civilized and polite.

The slightest of non conforming information or a honest paperwork mistake in your application can be used to permanently reject a visa,

Even if you been living for many many years , you have to leave in very short time (10-60? Days) if your visa is revoked/expired because you lost your job and potentially upend/split your family some of whom would be citizens if they were born here

Or be deported out by ICE right after serving lengthy sentence despite living in the country your whole life , to a home country you don’t know and never even been.

Despite all the bad press and difficulties US has a better system than most other countries, however if you are unlucky US immigration can upend your life.

Does anyone know the rationale for why the laws are currently written this way?

The laws are made to make use of cheap and obedient foreign labor; and dispose of it when no longer needed.

It's not how the law is written, as I understand it. It is how it is implemented and that is up to the President, Director of Homeland Security and ICE. Applications used to be returned or clarified when they had been filled out incorrectly. Now they are perfunctorily denied, and the applicant has to file an appeal. This change was brought about by a change in executive policy. I cannot say for sure whether it was started under Obama or Trump, but I did hear that it caught immigration attorneys off-guard. For example, if there is no middle name, they are not supposed to leave it blank. But if they use the wrong magic word to fill the space or cross it out, the application is now denied.

Which way? That's how every country on earth operates. You are not a citizen of a country just because your parents dragged you there when you were young. In fact, the US is almost the only place on earth that grants birth-right citizenship (maybe Canada and Australia do as well?). All other countries think this is absurd.

Looking up Jus Soli, it's quite widespread in the Americas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Definitely not a US only thing. Though does appear to be a New world thing.

This is a compeltely different topic now.

You're talking about people who were dragged into the US when they were children by their parents.

We were just talking about whether the US is particularly stringent when it comes to border inspections.

> Or be deported out by ICE right after serving lengthy sentence despite living in the country your whole life

Most countries would consider foreign citizens who serve lengthy prison sentences as unwanted visitors and would like very much to get rid of them as soon as possible.

I don't know of a country that welcomes such a thing. Do you know of one?

I don't think Svalbard (territory) imposes any sort of criminal background scrutiny before settlement.

I'm not sure if Vanuatu allows immigration for people who served time in Vanuatu but my understanding is they commonly "forget" to thoroughly check records when people pay the $130k or whatever it is for their passport-by-investment; Comoros was doing the same thing before they shut down their CIP program.

Most countries even emerging economies with poor human rights records have nowhere close to the insane incarceration rate that the U.S. has, so it is far lesser problem anywhere else.

You're yet again talking about a completely different topic. "Incarceration rate".

Politicians and public discourse sees it as related . Sanctuary city laws are specifically try to address this https://sf.gov/information/sanctuary-city-ordinance

Nobody is saying the fact we have incarceration rate is a different “topic “, we will not reform immigration policy to mitigate that.

These are real problems for real people , it doesn’t matter it is different topic, As a country we fail immigrants who come here

Since almost every time I enter?

Last time I entered I was (all without being arrested or charged with a crime)

-- forced to strip, cavity searched

-- searched by a dog, who found nothing, and agents lamented nothing was found, but they later wrote in their report that the dog alerted.

-- tossed in a cell

-- fingerprinted / booked (without being arrested/charged). US citizens entering with passport are not supposed to be fingerprinted.

-- detained for 16 hours

-- Had officials drag me in cuffs to two different hospitals 60 miles apart by prisoner transport van. Taken to second hospital after the first doctor wasn't corrupt enough to go along with their insane claims.

-- Had officials lie to doctors suggesting there were drugs up my ass, then being personally billed for medical services I never consented to. I am still in debt for these medical services I refused and were forced on me in custody.

-- After being seen without my consent, without an official arrest, or even a court order, was served ex-post-facto a warrant signed by the judge AFTER the time a which I was searched/"cared for."

-- forced to perform intimate body functions in full view (like 2 feet in front of me) of agents, who then searched the effects

-- Prevented from sleeping, even when doing so presents no interference or risk to anyone.

-- Dumped at the border with no apology

Here's a comment sharing some of the details last time I went through the border:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32416424#32421655

Here's a segment of my warrant based on perjurious testimony of DHS officials:

https://i.imgur.com/ZFPgRFl.png

(and their perjurious testimony WARNING/NSFW explicit text) : https://i.imgur.com/RXNrYmv.png

Doctors noting literally nothing interesting and that I'm asymptomatic of any problems and "stable for jail":

https://i.imgur.com/h6XHm5m.png

And a women sent to the same hospital as me, who was forcefully penetrated in her private orifices at the direction of DHS in circumstances similar to mine:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985...

These detentions are a regular occurrence for me. I'm a US citizen, clean criminal record, never committed a US border related offense. Yes they have also threatened to deny me entry to US and also threatened to revoke my passport as part of their intimidation.

This doesn't sound normal. Your other comment mentions something critical:

> I got thrown on something like this almost a decade ago when I fought alongside the YPG, a US backed Kurdish militia that fought against literal ISIS. DHS/CBP put me on some fucked up list and now everytime I re-enter the US I get detained, accused of crimes, tossed in holding cell.

So, you're in some kind of a black/gray list possibly caused by involvement in a military conflict. Granted, it sounds absurd they would do this given you were on the US-backed side of the conflict, but still. Your experience is not representative of anything remotely close to what most people go through.

That's a valid point that my personal circumstances are unusual, but after my latest entry I started digging into the court records and saw far more "normal" citizens also experienced similar circumstances to this particular occasion I mentioned at Nogales port of entry (like Ms Cervantes noted above and below, who appears to have been a normal ~18 year old girl). My black/gray listing put me on the express lane into seeing the dark side of border patrol -- but the sad fact is some "unlucky" normal citizens appear to getting this treatment, and once it happens your eyes are revealed to even the normal people this is happening to (and in fact, while I was there CBP officers bragged about putting other innocents through the same thing, including one for having a trans-sexual appendage)

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985...

I recommend in particular noted pgs 7-9 under the heading "Ashley’s [redacted] Were Probed without a Warrant, Consent or Any Suspicion of Internal Drug Smuggling"

Imagine a system which welcomes 99 out of 100 people and brutally kills one. I think if I were to read online about people's experiences, it would be dominated by the 99 telling me that no brutal killings occur.

I've never applied for any other kind than a tourist visa (and also never travelled in any other way there), and never had I seen anything different/worse than passing any other border in europe (non EU/schengen ones).

US does seem one of the only/few countries where an illegal immigrant can lead a pretty normal life for years (job, send kids to school, get a doctor, etc.) without getting noticed and deported... in my country for example, there's literally no way to get someone illegal to (eg.) school.

No, I'm leading a pretty normal life as an illegal immigrant in Argentina, and it's not legal to deport me (unless I commit a crime). Most countries don't have the level of government involvement in day-to-day life that many European countries do.

Naturally I'm sure you are law abiding, but I question how easy it is to live and work in Argentina without violating the law (I've heard it's practically a requirement to survive there -- if nothing else the tax laws). Maybe it's just a scam, but I had heard if you file for citizenship (which apparently anyone can do) it makes it harder to get deported?

I read some bizarre reports on baexpats that the easiest way to get deported is actually to follow the official legal residency pathway!

All that is true, except that it's harder to file for citizenship now. Just to clarify, you can't be deported for not paying taxes.

Yes, I'm from europe, here it's pretty impossible to do anything, atleast longterm (sneaking in and doing some under-the-table work for a few weeks and going back.. sure.. staying for years, having kids, etc... no way).

The US is weird because they are far more open to immigrants than many other nations, and extremely lax about illegal immigration (encouraging it even) while at the same being outright inhuman in how they treat the people that do get caught up by border patrol. We should really be doing the opposite of that and be far more strict about controlling illegal immigration while also making sure that the people we deport or turn away at the border are treated with respect and dignity and are well cared for while in our custody.

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