The life-changing effects of hallucinations
bbc.com
bbc.com
Also, word to the wise, if you're going to dabble in hallucinations be responsible:
- have a sober trip sitter that knows how to dig you out of bad places (change lights, introduce sensations, change music, etc)
- have a benzo or heavy CBD gummy on hand to hit the big red stop button if things get too intense
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EDIT: I've exceeded my three posts per day limit but am keenly interested in this topic, so will reply here hoping you will see it (if not, I will re-post as a reply tomorrow):
> Like, can I observe myself more readily without judgement and emotion? Yeah, I think these experiences teach me to do that in new and fascinating ways over time, but it is absolutely iterative. If you're asking if I can make the same discoveries without LSD now that I've done it once, maybe - but I doubt it. Many of the chains LSD relieves you of you are so accustomed to having that you may not even know they're present.
I'm aiming for much more nuanced detail (a trick: think of what we are discussing as a project that you are being paid to implement, which can facilitate the application of the full horsepower of your mind to the idea).
I think the key word here is "emulate" - you experienced an alternative but genuinely real & "true" mode of operation of your mind, one that is superior in some ways:
- I entered a state of mind where I got to visualize all the paths a thought could branch to
- and what ark that would carry on my thinking in the long term
- once I accepted my circumstances I was able to observe without fear
- I learned a tool for observing without expectation or controls
If you break your experience down into discrete bullet points like this, and you conceptualize them as services or implementations, and then you apply some of your standard computing analysis skills to the whole thing, do you believe it may possible (for you, or someone) to achieve a (crude or otherwise) reproduction/emulation of these abilities?
If you're asking if I can make the same discoveries without LSD now that I've done it once, maybe - but I doubt it. Many of the chains LSD relieves you of you are so accustomed to having that you may not even know they're present.
Categorically, my mind isn't visual with things like math. It's more process oriented. Visualizing DFS on thought paths would probably be very short lived for me; like maybe I could imagine an outcome being possible but I wouldn't fluidly move down that graph node-to-node the way it was visualized that time. Another thing is that while I am very process oriented and use process to deal with things like emotions, I am still a very emotional human being. It would be tough to separate myself from that trait without some metaphorical grease.
LSD removes a lot of the inhibitions you have with respect to `self` or `this` in programming terms. Observations occur without judgement of yourself or others; it's just a pure observation. In fact, I might say that you actually learn to appreciate things differently. The nice thing is that those things don't stay; you have to choose to copy over the attitudes and incentives you found in your trip to make them stay. Thus, change is pretty incremental.
What if you used a piece of paper to keep track of computation, or even better: custom written software? And then on top of it, used some techniques to remove time from interfering with computation (something which can also be experienced on psychedelics)?
Benzos are more important than a trip-sitter. If things go south, no human being can contain the possible damage. Benzos will put you right back down to earth. It could mean the difference between 30 minutes of an unpleasant experience or being hospitalized.
Part of my purpose is to know the nature of my reality. I wish for those who are seeking the same to be able to do so legally.
Unfortunately for some substances it’s hard to determine exactly how much active material you’re getting (eg, LSD tabs, dried mushrooms), but again, start low.
Best friend and his girlfriend did LSD, the girlfriend had an immediate mental breakdown and was hospitalized. Diagnosed with schizophrenia in the following months, has been a life long schizophrenic ever since.
The best friend developed "schizoid personality disorder" over the next year and was never the same. Both were normal, happy go lucky teens that changed dramatically over a summer.
Another friend took mushrooms several times without issue, but one time had a breakdown afterwards and developed a severe anxiety disorder immediately after that never went away.
I could list about 5 other friends with similar experiences, but the point is, some people have extremely negative reactions to hallucinogens, and I'm glad I never tried them.
It's all anecdotal - maybe the drugs accelerated something that would have happened anyway? Maybe they were more vulnerable as teens? who knows! I do know that none of them would ever touch hallucinogens today.
Adults or Children?
My friends were all "gifted kids" who hung out in the same social circle, and did lots (and lots) of drugs (acid, DMT, mushrooms, coke, weed) from age 15-18.
In all cases it was great until one time it was suddenly NOT great. Yes, I actually witnessed at least 3 "meltdowns" where someone started acting really, really scary-strange, "We should call his mom!" strange.
All of them have negative feelings towards drugs as adults. There was no internet then to look up correct dosage, "safe" usage. No reviewed darknet dealers selling "real stuff" vs. random shit you'd buy from a stranger at Lollapalooza. I don't know what to say, but it's true, I saw people get messed up (long-term) from hallucinogens and swear them off forever.
As for "meltdowns" aka "bad trips", I have seen plenty and heard about plenty more. But what I never saw or heard about were long-lasting effects after the bad trip.
I'd also note that DMT is known for it's intensity and dramatic after-effects. I wouldn't lump it in with those other drugs.
The beach was busy - I could also hear the ambient sound of many people chattering in different languages. So many languages. It was profound to me that those people came from so far around the world to that place, bringing with them an unimaginable depth of experiences and cultural diversity. Seeking the best for their families. Who did they leave behind? It was emotionally overwhelming. I cried.
After a while of focusing on sounds I started to focus on touch - the individual grains of sand against my fingers, the mass of sand below me. The wind on my exposed skin. The radiant warmth of summer.
As I focused on the feeling of touch, a remarkable thing happened. I felt the boundary between me and the universe start to dissolve. With each crash of the waves, the dotted line between me and the universe receded bit by bit.
Eventually I felt I was no longer separate from the sand, the waves, the air, the people. I was all of those things and I was nothing. I was a clump of cells on a rock.
Then I stood up and walked away, utterly at peace. My life was changed forever. Thanks, LSD.
A remarkable autobiography, and a balanced and compelling account of his practice. I'm inspired to find a good community :)
Especially since the actual contents of the altered state are usually known falsehoods, and people come back with contradictory propositions (I saw God vs. I saw there is no god.)
He has some very plausible explanations for why these experiences can be hugely positively transformative despite the actual contents of them (and propositional beliefs stemming from them) being largely meaningless.
However, here is 1 concrete example from my own life.
I had a friend who was extremely manipulative and would lie to me constantly to get sympathy or compliment me to ingratitude himself. He would steal from me,but most of the time he didn't need to because he knew I was generous and I would give him basically anything he asked for. Cause we were "friends"
I took acid, and watched him come over to my house and completely commandeer a party. I just sat watching his mannerisms. How he interacted with people. It became so clear immediately that he was an absolute fucking sociopath. When I sobered up I booted him out of my life for the better.
And this was not a case of me reading things into him that weren't there. When I sobered up I talked to all my friends and they were like "yeah that guys a fucking bastard we all wondered why you put up with him"
Something about the trip allowed me to perceive him in a way that I could not or would not have otherwise. I saw right through his flattery and fake charm.
Weird example, but in my life it's the only concrete example of a positive change from psychedelics.
Now I've got about a million negative stories, but there's a positive one for ya.
The series is pretty clear about the actual contents of altered states being largely garbage, so your observation and skepticism regarding "amazing ideas which they somehow can never write down and keep for later" is exactly in line with some of what's being discussed there, not contrary to it.
As one start onto the trail of established science on the phenomenon, here’s a review paper from 2015: Psychedelics and immunomodulation: novel approaches and therapeutic opportunities – https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2015.0035...
https://tim.blog/2022/07/27/matt-kaeberlein-life-extension/
There's a transcript linked if you'd rather read/skim it.
It’s super interesting to just stuff the names of the cytokines into Google Scholar and see what pops out. IL-6, IL-10, and TNF-alpha are some of the ones with a lot of papers out. There’s so much more knowledge out there than I could have imagined. It’s like almost nobody reads these papers. It’s wild.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotamine#Medical_uses
(Many years ago I remember a reddit post of a college student who used his school's lab to convert Ergotamine tablets into LSD and lay blotter. The comments were mostly of people congratulating him for his skill and then telling him to remove his post before he was discovered.)
Chronic activation of sigma-1 receptor evokes nociceptive activation of trigeminal nucleus caudalis in rats – https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pbb.2014.06.023
My extremely speculative guess wrapped in hunch clad in doubt is that, well, as a premise, 5-HT2A activation due to psychedelics causes downregulation of that same receptor (5-HT2A). This is known and accepted afaik. And: The 5-HT2A receptor seems to be intimately related to the Sigma-1 receptor – and the Sigma-1 receptor is inside cells – so potentially it is the downregulation of the “outside” 5-HT2A receptor that then allows the Sigma-1 receptor set to get a bit of a break?
Edit: Thing is, word on the street for literally decades has been that LSD and psilocybin help with migraine and cluster headaches. Finally there has been a study on it, which confirms the effect (to a certain degree; it’s a small preliminary study): Exploratory Controlled Study of the Migraine-Suppressing Effects of Psilocybin (2020) – https://doi.org/10.1007/s13311-020-00962-y
Edit: Please note that “immunomodulation” can mean immunosuppression! Take care!
There’s lots of science on this stuff. Surprising amounts. I strongly advocate for reading it. It’s surprisingly readable once some key elements of the jargon are picked up!
The papers do outline some mechanisms that at least don’t exclude the possibility •shrug•
MS is in my family so, yeah. It’s no small thing.
I also feel immensely thankful for it. I nearly dropped out of high school and I bounced around manual labor jobs for a few years. I'm so far away from that fate now it's sometimes hard to reconcile internally.
That's...that's what legalizing is.
NONE of them were better off afterward
You can read all the "life changing experiences" that people have online, but when you take these you roll a dice. Keep this in mind. There's a lot of people who shill them super hard, and they might've had a positive experience, but consider the risk vs the reward and tread lightly
edit: And even the people who had "life changing experiences", they weren't better off. They never came out of it "enlightened" or any better than where they were before (based off of their behavior and the lifestyle choices they made)
I personally think turning to psychedelics as form of subjective exploration is perfectly healthy, despite the risks.
Experience. Also you're more likely to come across it due to legality. When you cross the threshold of legality you're more likely to find yourself in bad company
> I personally think turning to psychedelics as form of subjective exploration is perfectly healthy, despite the risks.
Maybe it is, but if I had kids I wouldn't allow them to take that risk
To seek or try drugs that may change your whole life is not healthy because it means you are implicitly deciding your current existence is not enough and something else needs to be on the other side: be it a nice trip, the most powerful high, or rush. The rejection of one’s existence is a concept that bothers me.
that is what bothers me with religion as well: it is a rejection of ourselves and reality traded for comfort. I get people need it due to bad life circumstances, but like any addiction it is just a pain killer for a festering wound.
> that is what bothers me with religion as well: it is a rejection of ourselves and reality traded for comfort. I get people need it due to bad life circumstances, but like any addiction it is just a pain killer for a festering wound.
Is it only drugs and religion though? And not just illegal drugs, but the legal ones as well?
Couldn't one argue that people seek out religion for emotional needs, and that emotional needs force people to reject themselves in favor of the community? Or is this a misguided take?
Another way to think of it is, we have kinds that can imagine and simulate anything. We are practically gods in our own minds. The tragedy is that we have this power but will sooner or later die. This is a tragic a deep realization we all have.
For example, I could see these being useful for an alcoholic who has already decided that they need to get sober, but need help beating the dependence. On the flip side, I have a feeling that people who just take it recreationally (not for a conditions nor in a controlled/guided setting) probably aren't getting any benefit. These are all just guesses though.
This is the problem: is anyone? Does anyone have a perfect upbringing? How could they be sure?
Tbh I really don't know whether they were normal, one of them had an abusive dad and afterwards decided to cut family ties, drop out of college, and do more drugs
The problem here, and why I don't recommend hallucinogens to anyone, is that people read the warnings about hallucinogens and think their upbringing was "healthy enough" to handle them. How could they actually know that for a fact?
It also changed what society looked like. Growing up I was always highly sceptical of religion, but after doing hallucinogens (and not while doing them) I started to see the same sort of irrational craving for religion in other places also. It made me realize how inherently irrational we all are, and how much of our society is built on top of fear. Also how our own emotional needs can be exploited
I started reading a lot more, and read a bunch of late 19th early 20th century literature because I wanted some sort of sense of direction. I also became a lot more conscious of whenever people exhibit manipulative tendencies or try telling other people what to want. In general I became less trusting than how I was before and more content with my own life plan. This changed the relationships that I had and made me stop talking to old friends (who really weren't very good people), and made me more assertive about boundaries and expectations of respect
The downsides of doing them: infrequent feelings of disassociation (feeling like life is a dream) and preoccupation with death (also infrequent now). Also being less trusting and more sceptical of how people try to direct each other through life. Most of the positives came about after a couple years of being drug free, so I don't know whether they happened because of me getting older or the hallucinogens
I didn't find it a very spiritual experience actually. It was like playing with the visual part of the brain and seeing what the hardwired stuff is, felt very physical. The Dreamachine seems similar in that regard.
Another weird parallel: when AIs create those pictures of stuff that looks like something but under further analysis is just random parts of different things it's similar to the hyperrealistic bits' texture.
Also LSD has been linked to speeding up early onset schizophrenia in individuals who are susceptible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4813425/
Perhaps from a study perspective they're mostly focusing on the "normal" responses and ignoring outliers. Although I have seen some safety studies on various things that do look at the negatives. Those don't really get shared here (or anywhere really).
Most importantly do research and be very very careful with doses or combinations, as (depending on what you have and where you got it) it's possible to overdo it when you think you didn't take enough. Better to err on the side of caution than to be overwhelmed, and because people react differently don't just think because someone else's dose worked for them that it will work for you.
I had this buddy, who, at the time we became friends, was writing stuff in assembler that I had trouble putting in pascal. To my kid mind, he was an absolute genius. Eventually, he told was he was talking acid and disclosed how he could tell his mind was not as sharp as it used to be as a result.
I have no knowledge if it was laced with anything or he simply had one trip too many, but it was definitely life changing. I was trying to reach out recently ( you know.. the whole nostalgia thing to see where everyone is these days ).
I will admit that made me hesitate on trying it myself on my own. If I were to do it now, the one thing I would make sure of is that there someone there to watch over me.
There are stories of actual mind blowing experiences that truly do expand your mind. I did not share my personal experience, because a feeling of absolute peace while being engulfed by light is not that uncommon and hardly life changing unless you are easily swayed anyway.
There is a chance your mind will expand. There is a chance something bad will happen. It is a gamble, but I personally think we are still in dark ages of drugs. Maybe one day we will know how exact dosage affects specific mental profile.
As for my mind, I had what people call a 'mystical experience' but I was so young (20s) that I didn't have the necessary words to describe it or put it into words. It's only when I read up about Gnosticism and went down various conspiracy-theory rabbit-holes on Youtube that I could piece it all together, and have the right words to describe it (escaping the Matrix etc).
I would never try them again though. Too risky. I value my mental health too much. If I want shroom-like hallucinations though, I use the Lumenate app which everyone should try:
I would say I absolutely had hallucinations and the experiences were powerful and long lasting, but I’m still aware it’s a trip.
becuase I've been wondering recently what would have happened if I only tried hallucinogenics for the first time now that my brain is much older?
That's an interesting idea.
people's brains, specifically male brains get to full adulthood around 22-25; iirc women get there a couple of years earlier.
I first used LSD around 15-16. It was fun in that novel kind of way. Not life-changing.
Around a year later I moved to a new place where LSD was much more accessible and much cheaper. Myself and some new friends started using it frequently (i.e. every 2-3 weeks). I was also smoking pot regularly at the time. Some months later I had become complacent and we decided to go into the city centre on a busy Friday night while under the influence. I had a very bad time. Bad set and setting as they say. Strong paranoia set in - not unlike a lot of people would be familiar with through smoking pot, just much more intense.
That bad trip stuck with me. It really was life-changing. I developed strong anxiety, especially in social situations. It was as though, during that trip, my brain had learned some new associations and they persisted.
I have a large extended family that includes some with bipolar disorder and one schizophrenic. Knowing this, I was privately very concerned for myself. It took me roughly five years to learn to overcome that anxiety (no drugs or counseling, largely just self reflection). As with most things in life, I don't regret it as it is a part of what made me the person I am today. I know that I missed a lot of opportunities during those years, but I appreciate that I understand myself in a way that I otherwise might not have. I actually feel that I have come out psychologically stronger - able to recognise what is triggering certain feelings and having simple strategies for dealing with them (or even avoiding them in the first place).
Part of that whole process was learning that pot wasn't for me (fun as it was initially). Today I don't actually enjoy it at all.
Surprisingly, I do occasionally use psychedelics these days. I feel very safe doing so and I put this down to the hard work I put in following that initial bad trip 20+ years ago.
What I get out of psychedelics now (largely psilocybin and occasionally LSD) is very different from what I was looking for when I was young. I don't seek out an experience with strong hallucinations in general. I'm there for the psychological insight. I relish the opportunity it allows me for 'objective' self reflection. I know of no other way to be as honest with myself about my self. I get real insights that I later reflect on and that really help me get the most out of my meditation practice.
There's a question that you might have come across sometime. "When did you realise that you were the arsehole?" When I first saw that, I didn't give it much thought. Now I do. It's just part of the development of the self. I now welcome those moments where I catch myself being selfish, or reflexively and narcissistically defending the (always) inadequate conception I have of my self.
Psychedelics for me are a useful tool for honest introspection. Sometimes it can be exquisitely uncomfortable and you need to be prepared for that but I find it invaluable. Psilocybin seems to be better for this than LSD. It is the only drug I have ever experienced that leaves me feeling noticeably better the following day (I have similar thoughts when using LSD, but somehow it leaves my brain feeling a bit 'frazzled').
TLDR; When younger I chased strong 'fun' hallucinations using psychedelics and paid a price that taught me an important lesson. Today I use them for self reflection and the way they (ironically) help me to maintain and conceive of a more realistic self.
Also, there is a distinction between the words that we use to conceptualize and communicate about reality, but consciousness (presumably due to evolution) tends to filter such things out.
> Yeah normal consciousness is normal, of course. That's not an assumption that I make, that just a basic fact.
To me, this is fascinating: I clearly compared normal consciousness to base reality but you decided(?) to reply as if I had said "normal consciousness is normal". To me, this is an excellent demonstration of the very thing I am talking about...both the phenomenon itself, but also this part: "...which is what it can be revealed to be with a relatively small amount of investigation" - more precisely: compare how people describe (their) reality, to the objective, shared reality that is literally printed on this web page.
Unfortunately, it is child's play for the subconscious to filter this sort of thing out before it reaches the "conscious awareness" stage of the pipeline (and then it still has to contend with ego, pride, cultural norms, post-hoc rationalization, etc) which may make this local maximum extremely difficult for humanity to break out of.
But there's another way to look at things which is prevalent in other circles, and if someday you decide to learn to meditate, I'm confident you'll get it.
How do you know the "real world" exists? Maybe you're a brain inside a jar "in the machine", and all the things you experience are being generated by the machine. In that case, how is an hallucination any different from any other experience you have? It isn't, it's exactly the same, it's just another experience. How you interpret it may be different, if you realize it's an hallucination, but the process itself is the same.
When you look at a tree, you can't just see the tree, you can only see the model that your mind creates of that tree, from the light that reaches your eyes, the sound, maybe touch etc - this is true for everything you experience.
Obviously the first perspective is very useful, it's science. But the second perspective is also very very useful, if you want to know why I can elaborate : )
My theory is that the pattern was always there, it just took acid to let me really notice it for the first time. Something about the way that the concrete dries, or maybe an artifact of whatever they do to freshly poured concrete to make it grippy.
Could also be pure delusion, so, grain of salt. But I think there is something to the idea that a new / different frame of reference and attention can show you things you may otherwise not have noticed.
I have had extremely realistic hallucinations mostly from side/withdrawal effects, but they were not "life changing".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2A_receptor
This receptor also seems involved in synesthesia, a psychedelic-like condition thought to involve a cross-wiring of visual and auditory brain pathways that result in 'seeing sounds' and 'hearing colors'. Here's a bit of research on that:
> "Synesthesia has been reported with LSD5 as accompaniment to other visual hallucinations. These sound-induced visual perceptions and the visual hallucinations can be well formed and complex. The cause of synesthesia is thought to be chemical deafferentation of lateral geniculate body, which will deprive the occipital cortex from visual stimuli. LSD is known to selectively activate serotonin 2A receptor. Brang and Ramachandran19 hypothesized that serotonin 2A receptors are the “synesthesia receptor”. Auditory visual synesthesia also has been reported with other serotonin 2A agonists including mescaline and ayahuasca. Ayahuasca contains serotonergic psychledic N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and beta-carboline, a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. DMT is a partial agonist of serotonin 2A receptors and beta-carboline inhibits the visceral metabolism of DMT, increasing its systemic levels."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3218766/
Incidentally, static output from old analog CRT televisions tuned to dead channels is a kind of ideal 'blank sheet' for producing hallucinations. Unfortunately there don't seem to be many good simulations of this once-common phenomena (the YT videos of TV static seem to suffer from replication issues of various sorts and aren't that realistic). Similar natural effects might be obtained by looking at fog and clouds, waves breaking on a beach, wind blowing over a field of grass, etc.
I'd argue that one of the great potential benefits of psychedelics is that they encourage us to look closely at the world around us.
I was 33 the first time so tried cannabis and I had vivid, colorful visualizations. It was intensely satisfying. I've since regained some ability to visualize in an un-altered state.
When you say 'you probably won’t visualize' do you mean completely internal/mental visualisations or are you including all sorts of hallucinogenic visualisations typically reported?
(I'm asking these because I have aphantasia and have been psychedelic/hallucination-curious, but still haven't given anything of the sort a try. I do engage with mystical practices, though, have had 'mystical visions' (which had actual no visual component!), and have been curious how psychedelics might compare.)