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Comment by treis | Hacker News Reader

Yes, that's what we do when translating accomplishments to ability

Perhaps, but more germane here: it’s also being used by you to discredit real accomplishments with hypothetical ones.

I’m not discounting that you could be right, just that you could be right in a totally contrived scenario.

You're assuming your point by calling them "real accomplishments". But that's the whole debate. Is being an Eagle Scout a "real accomplishment" or is it a participation award? And if it's a participation award did the kid get it through his own initiative or because he was forced by his parents? The answer to that question is the whole debate.

And this is not a "totally contrived" scenario. The guy is posting his kid's resume on some blog post about SAT scores in another state. That's very strong evidence as to his involvement and importance he placed on college admissions.

Eagle Scout is the highest rank in American scouting, and is achieved by less than 5% of those who pursue it. Eagle Scouts include U.S. Presidents, Judges, Astronauts, Generals, and technology Founders. Those who achieve it and pursue a career in the military are advanced to a higher rank and higher payscale upon enlistment in all branches of the armed services.

https://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Boy-Scouts-Repo...

Yes, that's why this dad (probably) forced his kid to become an Eagle Scout. But it is not evidence that being an Eagle Scout is an accomplishment. Because it's really not. It's the ultimate box checking exercise. No individual step is something that a kid with a room temperature IQ couldn't do. It's simply sustaining a modest amount of effort for ~8 years.

If a kid does that of their own volition then it's evidence of something.

If a kid does it because their parents made them do it in order to put it on their college application then it's meaningless.

Fifth percentile in an optional activity is NOT the big number you think it is in the case of elite university admissions. For reference, being in the fifth percentile of all track participants or all debate participants doesn't rise to the level that would move the needle on admission to CMU CS or HM. Just making the Varsity team in either is already above the 50th percentile in many cases, and setting yourself apart for super elite college admissions requires being in the top percentile or so of that 50th percentile of Varsity participants.

Seriously. Let's compare to scouting, which starts young. Every year, 4.14 million students participate in track across all age groups. There are at most 9,516 D1 track and field scholarships. That's a maximum 0.2% (not 2%, 0.2%), often lower. Again, good enough for a D1 partial scholarship is often the "bar" for consideration of athletics in admissions beyond "participation item". And even then, it's not automatic admissions. It's just the bar you need to clear for them to care. To consider it as part of the package. You probably need something else, in addition to this and great scores.

And, to be clear, the difference between 5% ability and 1% ability is HUGE. The difference between 1% and 0.5% is again huge. In many activities, there's an exponential curve in terms of talent and effort. So we're not merely talking about a few percentage points, we're talking about a very qualitatively significant difference in kind.

The other issue with scouting in particular is that it's not competitive and the requirements are, honestly, mostly box checking. And the ones that aren't pure box checking are subjective and opaque.

Now, don't get me wrong. Scouting is a worthy endeavor and achieving Eagle Scout is RIGHTFULLY a crowning achievement for many youth! It's something to be proud of and which should be awarded!

But here, the sour grapes are not about good or even great schools. It's about admission to the absolutely most competitive departments at the absolutely most competitive schools. And in those cases, Eagle Scout just doesn't move the needle as much as people here assume. It's the minimum to even start taking scouting seriously as a resume item, not a needle mover.

Not the OP. Just want to add that it takes years of work to become an Eagle Scout. Usually at least two, but often three to five. Don't want to assume too much without clarification but feels a little uncharitable to imply that that level of effort is without value and/or not worthy of recognition.

Yes, it's a real accomplishment. It's also not the sort of accomplishment that moves the needle on elite admissions. There is no contradiction. The bar is higher than people think. CMU CS/HM don't have enough seats for everyone with good grades, good test scores, and an Eagle Scout-level accomplishment.

For reference, you probably have to be in the 0.2 percentile of track and field athletes (plus have a raving letter for your coach about your leadership of the team) in order for these types of departments at these types of schools to factor your athletic accomplishments into their decision making. But 5% of scouts make it to Eagle Scout. And going from fifth percentile in something to 0.2 percentile in something is... absolutely huge. In most endeavors, 5% is "show up, work hard, and care" while 0.2% is "be absolutely exceptional".

That doesn't mean that making Eagle Scout or doing well at regional track meets is a non-accomplishment. It just means that you're competing to be one of a few hundred or at most a few thousand in the entire ocean, not the pond or even the lake.

The kid got a big scholarship at a very excellent school. It's not like his effort was not rewarded. He just wasn't one of the 1K best in the country.

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