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Comment by ZeroGravitas | Hacker News Reader

I like the Onion. But some of the Babylon Bee 'satire' I see shared around is basically indistinguishable from 'fake news' since the audience has already been primed with fake news.

I don't really see any harm in having some kind of safeword for fake news, when no deception is intended, similar to the 555 phone numbers in films, something that tips you off if presented out of context.

I'm sure I've seen several sub-reddits where satire submissions need tagged because otherwise the conversation is derailed by people who don't understand the satire.

Almost every "this is why the libs are crazy" style comment I see here on HN is a response to a satire comment from someone who they agree with politically.

Satire is great, inventing a shared false reality by accident is less cool.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AteTheOnion/comments/rx0kbw/people_...

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> I don't really see any harm in having some kind of safeword for fake news, when no deception is intended, similar to the 555 phone numbers in films, something that tips you off if presented out of context.

The safeword is in the title: The Babylon Bee. Yes some people will mistaken the Bee for real news just like some people mistake the Onion for real news. Personally I think that calling the Onion ok while saying the Bee is not because of your political views is disingenuous.

> The safeword is in the title: The Babylon Bee

Yep. The Babylon Bee is sort of “double satire”: that is, it is an (unintentional) parody of a satirical newspaper, which at first glance looks like a joke before you read more closely and realize that the authors are barely literate and without a sense of humor. Like a written analog of Ben Garrison cartoons.

We get such gems as Amazon Blows Entire $1 Billion 'Rings Of Power' Budget On Making It Look Like A Woman Can Hold A Sword; Russian Spy Awarded Presidential Medal Of Freedom For Being First Openly Transgender Traitor To Country; Biden Vows Next Hurricane To Hit US Will Be Named After A Woman Of Color; 'Did God Really Say You Shouldn't Kill Your Baby?' Hisses Slithering Newsom To Frightened Pregnant Woman; Pelosi Drafts Articles Of Impeachment Against New Prime Minister Of Italy; Stacey Abrams Claims Obesity Is Just Numbers Manufactured By Her Bathroom Scale; Disney Chooses Bald Actress To Play Rapunzel In Live-Action Remake; Where Are They Now? Catch Up With All Your Favorite Laid-Off CNN Employees! ...

Even incompetent and tasteless parody is still clearly speech protected by the first amendment, as the Onion brief author explains.

> which at first glance looks like a joke before you realize that all of the authors are barely literate and entirely without a sense of humor

You just don't find their humor funny and that's fine.

What's funny about the thing linked to? The satirical claim is that Applebee's is banning Greene from to go online ordering.

Where's the joke? Is the joke simply a company is being mean to a Republican? This is one of those things in the realm of "I know it didn't happen but it's totally something they would do" except that it never happens.

Is it commentary to the story that a completely unrelated restaurant continued to impose a vaccine mandate despite being called out on twitter by Greene? If so, how?

That's the Bee's problem, most of their jokes aren't. They're really just mostly insults. And they really only insult one type of person.

Whereas, I can go to The Onion and tell you why https://www.theonion.com/high-schoolers-given-detention-for-... is funny and/or satirical without even getting into the actual article.

American schools are ridiculously strict and also the subject of way too many shootings. Even the fact of considering the act of fleeing from a shooter as "cutting class" is just outrageous. It's taking things that have actually happened, slightly exaggerating them, and then combining them into something that is too absurd to be believed.

The joke is that corporations do performative political acts to appear socially conscious. They are using hyperbole based on this stereotype to joke that Applebee's (a relatable family diner) has done something incredibly minor (limiting the scope to "to-go orders" while still allowing her to sit down) as a political stunt. The joke arises from the contrast between the seriousness of the allegations and the minorness of the punishment.

It's not good comedy, but the basis of a joke is there.

So, like in the realm of something that doesn't happen but we're going to say it totally happens because of... reasons.

It's not even in the realm of hyperbole, is it. It may want to be, but it's not. And unless this is something common to "relatable family diner(s)", singling out Applebees is also a head scratcher. The "joke" here is "fucking liberals". When the "fucking liberal" in this case is just a random ass pull.

It's a combination of odd reaches and odd selection of targets that makes one more say "what?" than anything else.

Where I come from the name "Applebees" is mockingly used interchangably with TGIFridays, Chilis etc. because the menu and dining experience is mostly indistinguishable from brand to brand.

Right, but none of them are doing anything like this. It would make sense if Applebees was doing something similar so you can do the comparison. Or if these chain Americano restaurants had a history of these types of actions so you can do that comparison. But neither of those things are true.

It's why I contrasted it with the Onion's headline about students fleeing school shootings getting detention. All the links to events are there to be made. The Applebees thing lacks those links. In this case Applebees is standing in for Twitter. Which is just a weird stand in. It would be funny if the headline was that MySpace was proactively banning Greene for blah blah blah. Because MySpace is also a social media company, but completely irrelevant, so it's funny because it's essentially "you can't fire me, I quit".

> So, like in the realm of something that doesn't happen but we're going to say it totally happens because of... reasons.

Kind of like how schools don't actually give students detention for missing class during shootings, but the onion said it total happens because of...

It's the same thing. The Onion does it much better, but it's still satire.

I wouldn't fault someone for enjoying the Onion but not being a fan of the Babylon Bee though. In addition to having worse writers the Bee is also limited to pandering to the worldview of their target audience which doesn't always have a solid basis in reality. It's easy for their jokes to fall completely flat when they're a scathing critique of something imaginary, but if you were a believer in the fantasy you'd probably feel the Bee was much more entertaining.

That said, the Bee does manage to land some solid hits at times and I suspect the cognitive dissonance that can cause may make some people uncomfortable which could also sour their enjoyment a bit.

Honestly that's probably one of the few Babylon Bee headlines that are somewhat decent. You can see why it's probably funny to their audience, they are like "lol stupid commie liberal restaurant virtue signaling". Overall it's pretty funny to me because their own audience that presumably should find it funny would fall for it and get riled up if they don't already know what the Babylon Bee is. It would also be somewhat funny if Applebee's was out here banning individual politicians.

Most of their content isn't that great though. It seems to range from boomer jokes like "NFL Fires Neurologist After Learning His Concussion Protocol Was Just To Look For Cartoon Tweeting Birds Flying Around Player's Head" to the completely stale "X identifies as Y" type.

> What's funny about the thing linked to? The satirical claim is that Applebee's is banning Greene from to go online ordering.

You have to look at when it was published, Jan 4, 2022. The previous day news dropped that both Facebook and Twitter suspended MTG for misinformation.

> I don't really see any harm in having some kind of safeword for fake news

They address this:

"Third, the Sixth Circuit’s ruling imperils an ancient form of discourse. The court’s decision suggests that parodists are in the clear only if they pop the balloon in advance by warning their audience that their parody is not true. But some forms of comedy don’t work unless the comedian is able to tell the joke with a straight face. Parody is the quintessential example. Parodists intentionally inhabit the rhetorical form of their target in order to exaggerate or implode it--and by doing so demonstrate the target’s illogic or absurdity."

Plus First Amendment issues, and implementation details. If I make one satirical statement in an otherwise non-satirical essay, must I tag that sentence? Must all "it should have been clear I was joking" statements be tagged to avoid the risk of running afoul the law?

It's a serious can of worms.

Or it may be because the people and groups they made fun of over the years have clowned themselves by doing the very thing they were mocked for. "NotTheBee" exists for a good reason.

Also how being ridiculed for falling for a satire article not instructive about checking sources? It's not like The Bee is an obscure propaganda state operated website.

NotTheBee is even scarier glimpse into their psyche:

https://notthebee.com/

Is that an official sister site?

Apparently so:

> Not the Bee is a humor-based news, opinion, and entertainment site from the creators of The Babylon Bee and Disrn. Like the name suggests, it'll feature some absurd and hilarious (but real) news that seems like it should definitely be satire.

Hmm, this actually explains a lot about their jokes:

> Yes ladies and gentlemen, abortion is now illegal in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, and Mississippi, so Planned Parenthood is on the move, literally driving their RV along the Illinois border looking for babies to kill.

...

> These people will do anything to get their hands on a preborn child

Was this parody or an actual opinion?

It is no secret that the Bee has a conservative take on their satire pieces.

Armchair psychoanalysis based on a single political opinion, in this case abortion, is simply sloppy. Just because you and I don't agree with them don't make them "deranged" or "dangerous".

The fact that you base presumably serious opinion on their psyche, implying they are "dangerous" is more telling about your way of thinking than theirs.

You should read the onion pdf. It explains why the safe word would break the linguistic tool of parody. It is the initial/doubt in the readers the kind of „wait what???“-effect that is the essence of the parody.

I read it and didn't agree with it. When I'm on the Onion site or reading one of their books, I know it's the Onion. That doesn't make it less funny.

You think they're doing this by accident?

Yeah, there's some trolls but the Babylon Bee folk seem to be genuine, as far as I can tell, even though I find their content unpleasant, unfunny and dangerous even as satire:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/babylon-bee-sati...

Dangerous? Come on.

Yes.

https://babylonbee.com/news/are-you-a-fascist-know-the-signs

Is this satire or are they just genuinely angry about stuff that isn't really happening? Hard to tell.

> You have more than one kid and you love being a parent: Dedication to the family is a distraction from service to the state. Just abort, you fascist – don't you want to be liberated?

That’s actually pretty humorous

It's very clearly satire and not dangerous.

I have a very serious question for anyone pushing a limit on free speech: where does it end?

My answer is that the Right will dictate the limits to speech, not the Left.

Stop pushing for this. It will end poorly for everyone. The people who are already suffering will be the hardest hit.

Babylon Bee is probably among the least dangerous of modern conservatism. Babylon Bee writers themselves have been known to admit they have a really hard time writing anything decent. Their market is conservatives, not fans of humor. As such, any This is because the secret to humor is surprise. Look at the quote you used. Did anyone not see the headline and not put together it'd be the usual "The real fascism" talking points?

I mean that's clearly satire by the very fact they are calling their readers fascists.

Or do you think people read that and say "oh yeah, I guess I am a fascist!"

This is dangerously lazy comedy writing, I’ll give it that.

When it does take a turn though, it appears that they really do believe that Biden supporters are literally murdering Trump voters in the streets. Or they want their readers to believe it.

The thing is, when you’re writing comedy and you break the fourth wall to say “okay here’s what I actually think,” as this article does, you’re no longer in parody territory if most of what you say is exactly what a common person believes. Mixing in satire that sounds exactly like fascist propaganda is pretty transparently manipulative.

> it appears that they really do believe that Biden supporters are literally murdering Trump voters in the streets

They are: https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/22/us/north-dakota-teenager-vehi...

> Four of Brandt's neighbors agreed that his mental health contributed to the incident, and said they don't believe the incident was motivated by politics.

Quote from Fox News.

Meanwhile Trump has been telling people he was a far left activist who intentionally mowed someone down in cold blood and the mainstream media refuses to cover the story (possibly because Trump made up most of the details).

There's some weird stuff about the the crazy guy saying the kid was in an extremist Republican outfit, but as far as I can tell that's just the ravings of a drunk with mental health issues who just run someone over while DUI.

“They” really doing a lot of work for you there…

Do you honestly believe this or are you just trying as hard as humanly possible to make a pedantic point for the sake of argument?

That's funny though I will say, the Bee makes some pretty in the weeds jokes, way more so than the Onion. If you keep up with politics and shit happening on twitter it's hilarious, if you're not then it's hard to understand that joke.

EDIT: That joke in question is about the new Italian PM. What they are satirizing is in her acceptance speech she talked about "family, god and country" and the left immediately called her fascist for it.

Or maybe calling her a fascist is the result of her rhetoric against LGBT folks and immigrants while leading a political party (The Brothers of Italy) with fascist roots and her comments praising fascists.

> What they are satirizing is in her acceptance speech she talked about "family, god and country" and the left immediately called her fascist for it

See, I don't think that's a thing that happened. And if you satirise something that never happened, but your audience all think happened, because someone on Twitter told them it happened then you're in a weird area.

And I can see how that could happen in other online cliques too. I think if it happened in a clique I was in and cared about, I'd call it out, not celebrate it. But that assumes you know it didn't happen, and that you care.

So fundamentally it's not the satire that's the problem, it's groups of people believing stuff that isn't true.

That's not why they called her a fascist.

The hard to tell part points to issues in society, not the satire.

Taking things seriously and taking socially reprehensible and authoritarian positions? Sounds like confession through projection.

Yeah. That isn't satire or a joke.

It's wearing the cloth, but it's really a thinly veiled screed against the "libruls".

It's positing that people are calling you fascist for saying Merry Christmas or voting for Trump. No one is doing that. Not a single goddamn person is doing that. Not a fucking soul is calling you fascist for celebrating the 4th of July.

But if you support or have supported an insurrection on your nation's capitol to install the loser of an election to the highest office in the land. You may have fascist tendencies. If you wish to install a theocracy and enforce the rules of your religion onto others. You may have fascist tendencies.

Then they throw in the mustache, goose-stepping bit. Which while both were done by actual fascists and are clear nods to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party, they aren't necessary or sufficient conditions.

Then they go on with the Biden criticisms in which they distort or ignore things to make claims. Like "You use federal law enforcement to intimidate and attack political opponents". Just completely ignoring the fact that it's neither intimidation nor an attack to investigate people who broke the law. Regardless if they're a "political opponent" or not. Which is kind of hilarious as one of Trump's campaign promises/slogans was literally a promise to use law enforcement to attack a political opponent.

As with most cases, the "joke" with The Babylon Bee is "fuck liberals".

well. as stated many times, you are upset and don't find this funny, but many people do find this funny. So is that comedy?

Also, jokes that are about literal things are, well, usually more boring. Have people called me a fascist for saying Merry Christmas? Nope. But... have I seen legitimate news outlets using the word fascist and Christian in the same article? Yep. Did it indirectly draw a connection between the two? Sure seems like it to me. Hence, the joke.

Why do you think I'm upset? That's a weird thing to accuse people of right off the bat.

Some people also find cruelty funny. That wouldn't make cruelty funny.

Yes, when talking about people who are Christian nationalists trying to install a theocracy, you may have the words "fascist" and "Christian" in the same article. But it's not in the same ballpark, or even the same sport, as saying you're being called a fascist for saying "Merry Christmas".

If anything, it's motte and bailey disguised as a joke. They're trying to get people to see anyone associating anything even Christian adjacent to fascism as unreasonable people.

But. You can be Christian and not be a fascist. You can go do Christian things, worship Christian gods, attend Christian churches, have Christian holidays. No one is going to say anything about it. The minute you try to force me to accept your Christian things, worship your gods, attend your Churches, and celebrate your holidays over all others, is the minute we start having problems. The minute we begin saying that you are a fascist in addition to being a Christian. Because no one is saying Christianity is fascism. But that's what that "joke" does. It's basically staking the claim that people complaining about Christian fascists are saying that all Christians are fascists. Or at the very least, saying that's a leap you can make. And it's not.

You sounded upset to me as well. Long post, f-word, using extremely online words like the sarcastic use of “librul,” and a couple other things. The overall discourse here has been more succinct and of a more moderate tone without compromising the ideas being shared. I don’t think it’s weird for someone to point out to you that your post is standing out in a negative way.

> Because no one is saying Christianity is fascism.

"American Christianity is fascism, all American Christians." https://twitter.com/MayMayGraves/status/1564745487378530305

i guess your f-bombs and swearing confused my brains sentiment analyzer.

It seems like you don't laugh at the Bee </interpretation>. I don't laugh at SNL. Or Trevor Noah. I cringe. But it's still satirical comedy nonetheless because lots of people do laugh and I would be the first person in line to protect their right to make fun of Trump or Christians or Republicans. Without this right to push the boundary, especially in a way that makes people laugh, then it really does start to look like fascism.

> It's positing that people are calling you fascist for ... voting for Trump. No one is doing that. Not a single goddamn person is doing that.

"Voting for Trump makes you a White Supremacist Fascist" https://twitter.com/fuzzybeargville/status/15661012675245547...

> Not a fucking soul is calling you fascist for celebrating the 4th of July.

"America is a fascist country therefore, celebrating this July 4th is celebrating fascism." https://twitter.com/FFDC202/status/1542899275453046784

You found Ben Shapiro claiming that Liz Cheney was calling all Trump 2024 voters 'incipient' Fascist, and you think that supports your case?

How about limiting the proof of what you think "liberals" think to stuff that blue checkmarked Twitter accounts who aren't professional comedians say in earnest. Otherwise we might as well use stuff scrawled on a bathroom stall wall in poop for our sources.

What's the danger exactly? Not outlandish conjecture like "it emboldens fascists", but something actually quantifiable.

> I find their content …dangerous even as satire

This is precisely why we need strong protections for satirists from those who are so insecure in their positions and beliefs that they respond to satire like it’s threatening.

Both satire and free speech in general can be dangerous.

edit: I don’t understand why people are downvoting a simple statement of undeniable fact. Do I need to mention that doesn’t mean I am in favor of government intervention?

Exactly. No different than "picking quarrels and provoking trouble".

If anyone is interested in what that means, it appears to be China's version of "resisting arrest" and "assaulting an officer": a spurious, ill-defined charge with which the inconvenient could be bludgeoned.

What the parent comment means by referencing this phenomenon, which already has an Occidental analogue, is still unclear to me.

It's basically China's version of "free speech is dangerous". Whenever someone starts saying things the CCP doesn't like, they are "fomenting dissent".

What people don't get is if you want to start censoring "dangerous speech" then you'd better have a perfect definition of what dangerous speech is. But there isn't one.

So what ends up happening is you ban speech with good reason, set a precedent, then your political opponent takes power and starts banning speech as well.

I'll provide the counterpoint and say satire and speech are not dangerous.

Nobody is directly hurt by it. It can be involved in a causal chain that leads to harm, but so can everything.

If you contend that speech is dangerous because it can lead to harm, then language itself is dangerous because it can lead to speech. For that matter air is dangerous, because it facilitates language.

Now that no one is talking we can save the environment for reals this time!

I value freedom of speech in general for the exact same reason that I don't endorse the absolutist position of supporting it always:

Speech is powerful, and it can cause great changes to the world. But, while all improvements are changes, so too are all diminutions.

Doesn’t sound like an actionable issue to involve the government.

Just like the 555 number, thats just an industry norm.

That's the subtle purpose of the BB. The modern world is so ridiculous, it's impossible to tell satire from reality.

How is this any different than memes? Memes are created by lots of people and spread around the internet, true or false.

Don't trust things you read on the internet, how hard is that?

Then people would actually have to take responsibility for their actions or agency.

It's Malcom Gladwell so take it with a grain of salt, but his episode on The Satire Paradox was great:

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/the-sati...

The premise is that despite Satire being an attempt at speaking truth to power, the people who are targets of satire will often think to themselves "I get that it's satire, but don't they make good points".

I don't know that I've actually seen this in real life, but he mentioned lots of conservatives liked the Colbert Report because despite knowing it was making fun of them, they agreed with the messages. I've seen this with myself in Portlandia. I live in Portland, and while I'm not a stereotype of a hipster, I moved to Portland for the "reasons people move to Portland" and I often find Portlandia sketches manage to capture the essence of the very things they're trying to make fun of.

Ultimately I don't think people taking the bee seriously is a bug, it's a feature.

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